Trade Balance System

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nimras on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:00 pm

LurantMaximus wrote:It was my understanding that we could still give whatever rates we want to our officers if it was within reasonable range of your standards (200,000 etc.) However I'm redlined with a 210k officer rate? You're regulating the AW economy and trying to control its rates which is terrible. The result will be a less competitive market in which everyone has similar rates and no one person will be more appealing to join than the rest. It will be more difficult to get officers now. In addition you haven't taken into account inactive officers. How are their commanders supposed to get resources? In addition how far back does this trade system record? I thought it was going to be a clean slate starting from when the message about halting the trades was. You recorded back past the war which means those who actively massed people in the war with their own armies and were compensated via alliance members are now being penalized for a policy which wasn't even in effect at the time. Now they need to send out mass percentages of their accounts just to greenline.

What you want this is a admin who cares not for his game but only for what he can do to controle you.

The fact is and i like this part:


Admin wrote:for the officer ratio, you have as much time as I decide that it was enough and send everyone who's in the red a message saying they should get it fixed.

As you can see ADMIN makes it clear he deside how long you have to fix your officer pay meaning you can't even know when he will punish you but him so he might one day give you 1 week but the next 1 hour.

And then the hammer false this proves he is full of it and should be hang.

Admin wrote:we have already proven that alliance programs can still go on
so stop making things up that aren't there, i think that discussion was 2-3 pages back.

I do love when you lie so much please continue will your lies and more lies.

We have 5 Programs out of those only 1 is maybe able to work after your update.

4 PROGRAMS you destroyed because of your paranoia and bullshit.

And if you ask me why i aren't taking the programs in here is because i have no intrest in showing others what we had planning so we could be competive and ready.

But the facts still stands.

Way to go.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:06 pm

Yes making it retroactive sucks alot and many things are not being accounted for, but this is what we have to deal with I guess.


I dislike anything being made retroactive, changing rules after you do something is never a good idea.

As far as officer rates I agree Max, now the only way to get or keep a good officer is by force or coercion.

Being penalized some something which was "perfectly legal" back then just sucks.


Tho I think this is a great system, just wish it had been put in from the start or slates wiped clean one.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:23 pm

Nomad wrote:Yes making it retroactive sucks alot and many things are not being accounted for, but this is what we have to deal with I guess.
Tho I think this is a great system, just wish it had been put in from the start or slates wiped clean one.
let me know which things havent been accounted for in your opinion

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:30 pm

LurantMaximus wrote:You're regulating the AW economy and trying to control its rates which is terrible.
Only the users regulate the economy. The system does nothing else but monitor severe discrepancies.
No one is forcing you to pay less, neither is anyone forcing you to pay more than you want.

LurantMaximus wrote:In addition you haven't taken into account inactive officers.
Do you know that for a fact because you've seen me say something about it or is it simply your theory because I didn't specify anything about it?

LurantMaximus wrote:I thought it was going to be a clean slate starting from when the message about halting the trades was.
That would be extremely unfair with respect to many people

LurantMaximus wrote:You recorded back past the war which means those who actively massed people in the war with their own armies and were compensated via alliance members are now being penalized for a policy which wasn't even in effect at the time. Now they need to send out mass percentages of their accounts just to greenline.
It makes no difference if they received any units back then and would send them back now or would not have received any units in the first place. Both players would be on the same level.
Please show to me how the above two situations would produce different results.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:41 pm

Admin wrote:
Nomad wrote:Yes making it retroactive sucks alot and many things are not being accounted for, but this is what we have to deal with I guess.
Tho I think this is a great system, just wish it had been put in from the start or slates wiped clean one.
let me know which things havent been accounted for in your opinion

UU being given to other players, those players being allowed to keep all income from those units, units returned due to this update, and me left owing them kewal due to the officer commander ratio

But that doesnt bother it as the amounts are/were very little.

More the concern is funds and UU being sent to accounts during a/the war/wars that is being counted against the account.

Example

I chose to kill 1mill men in a war. Those men would not have been sacrifised at that scale under normal certumstances but due to "perfectly legal" tactics then, but not now, they were sacrifised and then lets say 800K men and 80% of the kewal loses in weapons and training are also sent. Those 800K men and kewal is now being counted against me in my ratio. That's kinna the more important issue.

Also past alliance programs.


That said there is no silver bullet, and i still think the system is good, just wish it had been in place from the start or slates wiped clean on update launch.

Also was wondering about past officers, will their ratio from past times be counted against the old commanders? can a commander just drop an officer due to a bad ratio to avoid paying it?


Last edited by Nomad on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:42 pm

Nimras wrote:We have 5 Programs out of those only 1 is maybe able to work after your update.

4 PROGRAMS you destroyed because of your paranoia.

And if you ask me why i aren't taking the programs in here is because i have no intrest in showing others what we had planning so we could be competive and ready.

But the facts still stands.
nimras last warning about your language, watch it.
bovine feces is not acceptable

if you do not wish to discuss properly like an adult then g.o.
all I saw in your post was rude comments, claiming my argument was wrong and then hiding behind weak excuses without showing any arguments of your own.
actually dont even bother going into discussions if you have no clue how a proper discussion works.

obviously you're very emotional right now so i'll let it slip that you called me a liar and already had a warning for unacceptable language, do it again without showing any actual proof and there will be consequences.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:59 pm

Nomad you forgot to say:
I had officer payments before, the low rate was to help them from getting hit. I paid them kuwal/UU before, while that may help my ratio, that hurts there.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:02 pm

Nomad wrote:
UU being given to other players, those players being allowed to keep all income from those units, units returned due to this update, and me left owing them kewal due to the officer commander ratio

But that doesnt bother it as the amounts are/were very little.

More the concern is funds and UU being sent to accounts during a/the war/wars that is being counted against the account.

Example

I chose to kill 1mill men in a war. Those men would not have been sacrifised at that scale under normal certumstances but due to "perfectly legal" tactics then, but not now, they were sacrifised and then lets say 800K men and 80% of the kewal loses in weapons and training are also sent. Those 800K men and kewal is now being counted against me in my ratio. That's kinna the more important issue.

Also past alliance programs.
As you might have noticed everything gets valued in Turns, since this is the resource that suffers the least/no inflation (depending on how you look at it).

Basically one year ago you might have sent me 10 mil kuwal which was worth 100 turns.
So in my transfer ratio, it'll be written that my net flow is 100 turns into my account.
In order to get to 0 again, i'd need to send you 100 turns now, or the equivalent in uu or kuwal by today's rates.
By extension it therefore also consider the income you "lost" by not having these units. Since if you send away 1 mil units then get them back 1 week later for a "worse" rate per turn, the transfer ratio will then see that you have sent away more than you have received.
You could then have yourself be sent the extra kuwal you could have produced and it might get you closer to a balanced rate.

Now i'm not saying that this is always 100% accurate, since the calculations involved in loans would require the game to handle these things differently, but for the most cases of resources going back and forth it does the job rather accurately

Also account value counts in a similar way, it adds up the AT value of the kuwal you spent on your account and units you've lost.
Now since I have no way of knowing how much the stuff they paid was worth in turns in the past, me and kenzu decided to once count all kuwal expenses triple the current value, all units lost valued at 30 units / turn and half of all attack turns used. (only the attack turns you spend on fighting missions will add towards your account value now, since you already convert farm and raid AT's into kuwal and uu's)
From now on obviously all units that get killed, weapons destroyed and kuwal invested gets valued at the current values as they change.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nimras on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:05 pm

Admin wrote:
Nimras wrote:We have 5 Programs out of those only 1 is maybe able to work after your update.

4 PROGRAMS you destroyed because of your paranoia.

And if you ask me why i aren't taking the programs in here is because i have no intrest in showing others what we had planning so we could be competive and ready.

But the facts still stands.
nimras last warning about your language, watch it.
bovine feces is not acceptable

if you do not wish to discuss properly like an adult then g.o.
all I saw in your post was rude comments, claiming my argument was wrong and then hiding behind weak excuses without showing any arguments of your own.
actually dont even bother going into discussions if you have no clue how a proper discussion works.

obviously you're very emotional right now so i'll let it slip that you called me a liar and already had a warning for unacceptable language, do it again without showing any actual proof and there will be consequences.


Admin I made it clear i have no intrest of showing my alliances programs we had planned that is ours to keep not yours to see.

Secondly you do lie because i read the entire thread and several people commented on their programs will be ruined and i even know my leader said the same.

I do not find this update worth anything its writen on in regards to you trying to force people to play your style instead of letting them play their own.

You make it clear that if they go over the % limit and not bring it down they will be punished as far i am concerned that proves what ever play style i had is not void because you say so. The fact is if i wanted to send all my units away to play with my account or test things i cant. Or if i want to pastisipate in a program that sended Kuwal and UU may way without aving to send back will also not work because you made sure for that because of your fears for feeders again your paranoya.

Ohh and about my Insults there is no swear words in them so no warning can be given for it. And your lame comment about adulthood please if i am in the mood to swear at you because you deserve it my god its my right as a human being to do so either you take it as a man or you wimp away like a child thats up to you but if you read my post not once have i writen a bad word i might have made sure it could be up to your self to think what you want it to be but thats it, my language has not been breaking your rules as i have never said a bad word nor uttert it so as much you want to claim that you can't and for calling you a lier heck if i want to thats my right as well if you ban for that then you prove my point that your not able to take what comes your way for doing something i find lieing because it does not fit with what i can read and see. Hence why in my oppinion you are a lier in that one comment and since its my right to feel so and your rules says nothing against that then you should take it as a MAN and adult and accept it.

The fact is your not only here but ingame threathen people to do as you please in trades and in behavour and thats wrong my right to say what i do is allowed and as long i don't swear which your rules says is not allowed then you can't come and ban me for it as my language has not been swearing bull and bullshit is not swear words never will be and never can be calling you a lier neither.

So Admin either you accept as the adult you are that my language is not abusive as you claim and you also accept that I have my right to think you are lieing to me as it is my right to think and feel so, you never disproved me hence why should I accept you can't take it when you in your post proves nothing of the sort that I have missed anything? You have to prove me wrong not me you wrong in this.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:21 pm

Nimras banned for one day for doing something I explicitly told him not to and because he's clearly failing to understand the rules of this forum.

No you're not allowed to swear here at ANYONE. It's not your right here, go to north korea and go practice your right over there. Want to see how long you'll last. You never fought for freedom of speech, you never had to sacrifice anything for it so dont talk like it's something allmighty that you have earned through hard labor.


Last edited by Admin on Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by A man from Bob on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:25 pm

Ohh and about my Insults there is no swear words in them so no warning can be given for it. And your lame comment about adulthood please if i am in the mood to swear at you because you deserve it my god its my right as a human being to do so either you take it as a man or you wimp away like a child thats up to you but if you read my post not once have i writen a bad word i might have made sure it could be up to your self to think what you want it to be but thats it, my language has not been breaking your rules as i have never said a bad word nor uttert it so as much you want to claim that you can't and for calling you a lier heck if i want to thats my right as well if you ban for that then you prove my point that your not able to take what comes your way for doing something i find lieing because it does not fit with what i can read and see. Hence why in my oppinion you are a lier in that one comment and since its my right to feel so and your rules says nothing against that then you should take it as a MAN and adult and accept it.

Ummm... yeah. If you were ranting like this to me, me banning you would not mean that you're right, it just means you're obnoxious.
Just as an observation, people respond better when you're not yelling them.





So Admin either you accept as the adult you are that my language is not abusive as you claim and you also accept that I have my right to think you are lieing to me as it is my right to think and feel so, you never disproved me hence why should I accept you can't take it when you in your post proves nothing of the sort that I have missed anything? You have to prove me wrong not me you wrong in this.

Actually, the burden of proof is on you. It's like me claiming that you stole five bucks from me, and then turning around and saying that you have to prove that you didn't steal it.










To admin:
I think that overall, it's decent except for the officers. Can you make it more affected by what the average officer rate is? My rate isn't that crazy compared to the playerbase, but that's in the context of officer rates, not market prices (which is what 176k is about). I think lots of people pay out higher than the going rate to bring down their turn income to get farmed less, so rates are naturally higher than their value because it's basically their value+some limited farm protection.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:28 pm

Nimras wrote:You make it clear that if they go over the % limit and not bring it down they will be punished as far i am concerned that proves what ever play style i had is not void because you say so. The fact is if i wanted to send all my units away to play with my account or test things i cant. Or if i want to pastisipate in a program that sended Kuwal and UU may way without aving to send back.
You can do both and we have already established that it's possible.

you send everything away to test things out, your ratio drops, then slowly recovers because while you test thing your account still produces resources, and then eventually you get your things back returning your ratio back to normal.
I see no problem, do you?

About programs where you send kuwal away we've already established that these programs work, to a significant extent even if you dont get anything back, and even if you are already past the acceptable limit. see discussion few pages back.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:33 pm

A man from Bob wrote:To admin:
I think that overall, it's decent except for the officers. Can you make it more affected by what the average officer rate is? My rate isn't that crazy compared to the playerbase, but that's in the context of officer rates, not market prices (which is what 176k is about). I think lots of people pay out higher than the going rate to bring down their turn income to get farmed less, so rates are naturally higher than their value because it's basically their value+some limited farm protection.
ok, the officer rates probably still need a bit of explanation.

You are OK to pay any rate you want. If you stay in the red for too long, the extra resources you send away will simply start counting as if you had transferred them directly to the officer affecting your personal transfer ratio (or if you're paying too little, the resources you should have sent will count as if the officer had sent these resources to you directly).
You only need to stay in the green if your already working as hard as possible to fix your personal transfer ratio and do not want it to be affected anymore than it already is

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by A man from Bob on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:40 pm

Ah, that makes more sense

Can you clarify what "turns" are? They make no sense right now. I mean, yeah, it doesn't really matter as long as each turn is fixed onto your income, but I'd like to know just what they are.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:46 pm

in the transfer ratio page?
it means attack turns

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by A man from Bob on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:48 pm

No, I mean it says "Cummulative Value xxx Turns"


BTW, after pasting it into here, I noticed it's a typo Very Happy

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Vesper on Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:52 am

I am just curious. Admin do you have numbers of how many players currently meet your ratios of +-20%?

I am sorta curious of how many active players are within the range and how many are outside of it.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Vesper on Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:44 am

Okay so this will be my minor argument against this entire update.

In the past, I bought accounts and sent the resources to my account. At the time this was perfectly legal. Now admin decides 6 months later to make it illegal and force me to return the resources so that I am back within his range. I think that all actions done prior to this update should be ignored and that everyone should start with a perfect ratio with no exchanges done.

I purchased entire accounts with my own money then sent the UU to my account. Now it says I received a grand total of 26mil UU and sent out 6mil. So in order for me to get back within the admin friendly range I need to give away the 20mil UU that I paid for?

This is my first impression if the update. It is possible I am missing something so I just want a nice explanation of how I am supposed to get back to a 0 transfer ratio from the 80% that I am currently at without giving away the resources that I legally purchased. I purchased one of the accounts when I was coming off my banning and made sure to make admin fully aware of what was happening and had everything cleared and okayed by him personally. Every resources I received on my account is paid for and legally purchased when it was sent and it is insane to ask for me to give it all back without being reimbursed my money.

I also want to point at that me selling resources at a lower rate is pretty much the same thing as giving them away. I can give them away and get within the range quickly or slowly sell them at cheap rates and hurt myself overtime, which is still hurting myself, to get back within the range. Seems like no matter what I do, if I want to get back within the admins range I must punish myself for purchasing UU months ago. I can let my account grow I guess, but I need to buy UU at a higher rate if I want to move towards the ratio which yet again hurts my account.

What I would like to see is clean slates for the entire server starting everyone at 0% ratios the time the update is released.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:49 am

Vesper wrote:What I would like to see is clean slates for the entire server starting everyone at 0% ratios the time the update is released.
As I said, that would be extremely unfair towards those people who traded in a fair way with others at all times. Unless that issue is resolved then we cannot move forward with that idea.
Sidenote, those people who are at +80%, they were higher, they already got their amnesty by getting their ratio capped at 80%.

about who's within the range
13% of people are above 20% (they received "too much"), out of those, a third is below 30%
39% are within the limit
47% are under -20% (they sent away "too much"), mostly people who's accounts got sold and then resources moved, i'd figure there's only half of actually active people in there.

So accounting for the people who dont play anymore the ratios are about as follows:
17% are above 20%
51% are within the boundary (60% of people are within -30% and +30%)
31% are under -20%

If I count only the people who actually sent or received anything obviously.

however if a good system is presented how there could be partial "amnesty" where the half of people who actually have correct transfer ratios receive as much benefit as the ones who already sent or received too much then there might be a chance to do something.

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I hate PR, will never engage in it and will rain destruction on all who refuse to use their brains to think before they speak.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:18 pm

Admin wrote:
Vesper wrote:What I would like to see is clean slates for the entire server starting everyone at 0% ratios the time the update is released.
As I said, that would be extremely unfair towards those people who traded in a fair way with others at all times.

however if a good system is presented how there could be partial "amnesty" where the half of people who actually have correct transfer ratios receive as much benefit as the ones who already sent or received too much then there might be a chance to do something.

The first part is funny to me since you were personally involved in multiple account sales and trades, yet now you say they were not "fair" Laughing Seems you do not mind being "unfair" to the few as long as the many get to see them punished months after what was "Fair" then.

As for the second part, what benefit? They get to trade with no restriction, while those your punishing can only trade with restrictions. So I fail to see how or why you want a more of a benefit for one over another. Where I am from that's called favoritism.


I really don't mind the updates TBH, those who are committed will over come them and continue on. Those who are not committed will continue to whine and cry and beg for more ways to slow those passing them by. Don't think for a second this will stop someone who is committed to the game from achieving the goals they have set for themselves.

Adaptation is the most powerful weapon in games like these. Time to see who can adapt, and who will just have to find something new to cry about.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Vesper on Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:12 pm

My biggest concern is that admin says that it doesn't matter where we are now just as long as it doesnt increase. So basically if we follow the new rules we will be fine. So I don't see why not just reset.

From what I can tell admin is trying to make the game uniform. The older your account and the higher your average kuwal hit is the stronger you are. Merchant skills with buying and selling to different people is no longer useful.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:25 pm

Vesper wrote: Merchant skills with buying and selling to different people is no longer useful.

I would not say no longer, just that its usefulness has been slashed to the bone. Being a major trader with an extensive traders list is not nearly as useful as it use to be, but it does still have some perks.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:42 pm

I am willing to investigate any and all options I get presented wrt legit trading with brokers and making use of buy low sell high

however I was not able to find anything that wouldn't sabotage the whole concept of monitoring feeding

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:44 pm

Vesper wrote:From what I can tell admin is trying to make the game uniform. The older your account and the higher your average kuwal hit is the stronger you are. Merchant skills with buying and selling to different people is no longer useful.
All the kuwal you had invested in your account was counted triple it's current value
Similar story with all units you had lost in wars
Half of all attack turns used also gets added to your account value, only the ones you spend on fighting will count from now.

so older accounts did get a major boost in terms of calculating account value and hence in effect increasing how much they can receive from or send to others

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nimras on Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:30 am

Lol admin thank you for the time out you just proved me right Wink you can't handle things as a man.

Anyway I wan't you to clearyfie something:

Admin wrote:To clarify an apparent major misunderstanding about the commander payments to their officers.
You can pay as much or as little as you want to your officers.
You will NEVER get into trouble for having a bad transfer ratio with your officer/commander!

You write that the officer payment doese not count against you yet:

When i logged out 24 hours ago before you banned me for something insane and wrong again proving me right my transfer ratio was: 10.08%

Now i logged in after my ban and: Transfer Ratio 11.05 %

Now if i can gain almost 1% it has to be because of my pay to my officers as i can't trade thanks to your ban. Now if what you said in the news when i logged in is true then why are my transfer raio increasing because of my officers then the pay to my officers will at some point bring me over the 20%.

Now either this is a bug and you need to fix it or what you wrote about officers payment is well a lie and not true and it doese count against your transfer ratio.

I am sad i didn't take a copy of my transfer ratio before bed that day but i werent thinking you would sink that low and ban me for using offensive language in the bulletin board for everyone to see ohh well.

Anyway if the transfer ratio is for something else then you have a bug in when it changes and then everything is ok. So i hope you can answer me on that.

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Re: Trade Balance System

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