Trade Balance System

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:04 pm

kingkongfan and ishurue spam warning

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:10 pm

The main thing that I see this doing is stopping players from

1. Buying items from other players using $$
2. cross server trading
3. Getting a head of others using things such as capitalistic ideals.


side note

Nomad says he sent me my Kenny the commie doll but I didn't get it in the mail. Has anyone seen it? I am offering an award for his safe return.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:23 pm

seaborgium wrote:1. Buying items from other players using $$
A system to facilitate that is in development

seaborgium wrote:3. Getting a head of others using things such as capitalistic ideals.
Main 2 ideas I can think of is loans and buying low and selling high.
The first will be implemented to be supported under the new system.
The latter you can also do on the private market, however steps will be made to make it easier in some aspects.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Kenzu on Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:45 pm

seaborgium wrote:The main thing that I see this doing is stopping players from

1. Buying items from other players using $$
2. cross server trading
3. Getting a head of others using things such as capitalistic ideals.


side note

Nomad says he sent me my Kenny the commie doll but I didn't get it in the mail. Has anyone seen it? I am offering an award for his safe return.

1) You can always buy accounts and play with the new account. Less cash trading is not necessarily bad.

2)same as 1

3)The Trade Balance systems gets rid of fees paid on galactic market. With 0% fees, there will be more trade and profits are not "taxed" anymore, Sounds pretty capitalist to me. Exploiting your officers(or inactives) is not a good idea though.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:42 pm

nimras warning for abusive language
Nimras wrote:
Not only does it remove the fact a Alliance that wanted to do programs that benefited the entire alliance and made them stronger.

It also means helping someone by holding their stuff and so on seems so bah.
explain the following:

why is it not possible to do alliance programs?
why is it not possible to hold resources?

You have clearly misunderstood how the update will work but to clarify that problem I need to know which parts you're not getting

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:08 pm

Well admin your explination, and Kenzu's are complete BS.

Why can't you actually explain the system? show SS of what everything means. I ready Kenzu's wiki and no absolutely no more now then I did before other then 1 fact, the allaowable "leeway" is 20%.

20% of what?
Hell 20% of anything for a new account is about nothing for an older one.

Admin wrote:
why is it not possible to do alliance programs?
why is it not possible to hold resources?

You have clearly misunderstood how the update will work but to clarify that problem I need to know which parts you're not getting
How IS it possible to do alliance programs? 20% of what is all you can donate, and you cant donate it to 1 guy as it will put him far over 20%

Can you not see why we have problems understanding?

Lets say you got 10 people identical size, how can they do anything? you send 20% to someone else AND YOUR BOTH REDLINED!!!!!! WOW great alliance program.

Again same point, if i send 20% to someone smaller then me, then BAM we both redlined again. Once again, great alliance program.

And lastly since you made it retroactive then many will be at 40%, 50%, or higher and how many MONTHS will they have to sit on their friggan hands and no longer play just to keep from getting banned?

How is getting massed/killed in war going to effect this? If its based on account value, and your already way over your "allowed" ratio, then you get massed and your account value drops even furture then how are you to ever get back into the green?

Why dont you just set a strict price, or even a proper range on officer payments and be done, since you WILL NOT even bother to explain the system, how it works, what the arrows mean, what their placement means, how to know when your redlining, or anything else?

AND DEAR GOD WHY THE (H E double hockeysticks) ARE YOU PUTTING OUT THIS UNDER THOUGHT OUT UPDATE WITH NO EXPLINATION JUST TO CHANGE IT ALMOST IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!

As for the last part, YES, I fully agree I have many apparent misunderstandings of the system and how it will work.

What I'm not getting.
How can you make any alliance program work under this system (1K, 2K, even 10K UU a day is not an alliance program, its a joke, so dont even spew that BS)
How can you make loans of an size that will have any decent effect(same as above, 5, 10, even 25 bill loan is peanuts, so don't even go there)
HOW, yes HOW does the system work with the arrows and stuff since you have yet to explain it.
WHY put in a system just to immediately change it and take out all the stuff you just put in?

Get SS of real accounts, and actually show and explain whats what and how it works, and all that.

* SS = screen shots
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:14 pm

Nomad wrote:Well admin your explination, and Kenzu's are complete BS.

Why can't you actually explain the system? show SS of what everything means. I ready Kenzu's wiki and no absolutely no more now then I did before other then 1 fact, the allaowable "leeway" is 20%.

20% of what?
Hell 20% of anything for a new account is about nothing for an older one.

Admin wrote:
why is it not possible to do alliance programs?
why is it not possible to hold resources?

You have clearly misunderstood how the update will work but to clarify that problem I need to know which parts you're not getting
How IS it possible to do alliance programs? 20% of what is all you can donate, and you cant donate it to 1 guy as it will put him far over 20%

Can you not see why we have problems understanding?

Lets say you got 10 people identical size, how can they do anything? you send 20% to someone else AND YOUR BOTH REDLINED!!!!!! WOW great alliance program.

Again same point, if i send 20% to someone smaller then me, then BAM we both redlined again. Once again, great alliance program.

And lastly since you made it retroactive then many will be at 40%, 50%, or higher and how many MONTHS will they have to sit on their friggan hands and no longer play just to keep from getting banned?

How is getting massed/killed in war going to effect this? If its based on account value, and your already way over your "allowed" ratio, then you get massed and your account value drops even furture then how are you to ever get back into the green?

Why dont you just set a strict price, or even a proper range on officer payments and be done, since you WILL NOT even bother to explain the system, how it works, what the arrows mean, what their placement means, how to know when your redlining, or anything else?

AND DEAR GOD WHY THE (H E double hockeysticks) ARE YOU PUTTING OUT THIS UNDER THOUGHT OUT UPDATE WITH NO EXPLINATION JUST TO CHANGE IT ALMOST IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!

As for the last part, YES, I fully agree I have many apparent misunderstandings of the system and how it will work.

What I'm not getting.
How can you make any alliance program work under this system (1K, 2K, even 10K UU a day is not an alliance program, its a joke, so dont even spew that BS)
How can you make loans of an size that will have any decent effect(same as above, 5, 10, even 25 bill loan is peanuts, so don't even go there)
HOW, yes HOW does the system work with the arrows and stuff since you have yet to explain it.
WHY put in a system just to immediately change it and take out all the stuff you just put in?

Get SS of real accounts, and actually show and explain whats what and how it works, and all that.

* SS = screen shots

my post got deleted?... & I got a warning for spamming, & I said basically the same thing...
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:46 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:

my post got deleted?... & I got a warning for spamming, & I said basically the same thing...

IDK kong, i think it was the smilies or something, admin said he was adressing them, so I assume he is typing a message now.
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2. the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc, contrary to one's real character or actual behavior, esp the pretense of virtue and piety
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:49 pm

Nomad wrote:20% of what?
Hell 20% of anything for a new account is about nothing for an older one.

How IS it possible to do alliance programs? 20% of what is all you can donate, and you cant donate it to 1 guy as it will put him far over 20%
20% of your account value
Until the end of the post, when I say increase ratio it means that you're increasing the net amount of resources that went into your account. Decreasing ratio means decreasing the net amount of resources went into your account.

Nomad wrote:Can you not see why we have problems understanding?
I keep writing posts answering all questions people have and yet I seem to be writing the same thing over and over again.
I see 2 major issues.
Me having selected a bad approach in introducing an update that will make sure less people get banned for feeding.
And people writing their own posts too much and reading my posts too little, meaning I have to reply to one answer multiple times because it's different people asking it.

Nomad wrote:Lets say you got 10 people identical size, how can they do anything? you send 20% to someone else AND YOUR BOTH REDLINED!!!!!! WOW great alliance program.

Again same point, if i send 20% to someone smaller then me, then BAM we both redlined again. Once again, great alliance program.
Spoiler:

Admin wrote:then again only if you're found to not work to improve your ratio then you might get into actual trouble, until then you'll just get some occasional automatic message.
Admin wrote:There will be no hard limit where by reaching it you will automatically get punished or cannot send or receive resources.
There will be a recommended value, currently the idea is around 20-25% of your account value (so you can reduce this % by simply growing)
You get redlined, ok great, where's the problem with that? I've said on multiple occassions (see spoiler above) that just because someone gets redlined doesn't mean they are in trouble.
You get in trouble if you get redlined and then keep worsening your ratio for weeks and months on end.

So for the 4th time now (3rd time was where it's mentioned in the wiki page):
Whether you're below or above 20% is not important, what's important is that you dont keep increasing it over long periods of time

How do you increase the ratio:
Sell resources for high rates through the broker
Receive resources from others
Reduce your account value

How do you reduce the ratio:
Sell resources for low rates through the broker
Send resources to others
Let your account grow

So let's see, a guy with 3k army get's a 50 bil present from someone. They use that to build their up.
They end up with a ratio of almost 100% then.
In 10 days, they will produce 100k units, and by doing that their ratio will drop to 73%.
Conditions for not being in trouble have been met. Case closed.


Nomad wrote:And lastly since you made it retroactive then many will be at 40%, 50%, or higher and how many MONTHS will they have to sit on their friggan hands and no longer play just to keep from getting banned?
If someone is on 50% already, that means they could be sending away 40% of what their account produces and still be reducing their ratio slowly.
Doesn't look like sitting on their hands to me.

Nomad wrote:How is getting massed/killed in war going to effect this? If its based on account value, and your already way over your "allowed" ratio, then you get massed and your account value drops even furture then how are you to ever get back into the green?
You get massed, your ratio increases obviously, you rebuild and it will automatically drop again. I see no problem
There was a discussion somewhere about making this game a bit less math based, well I think this would be sort of unexpected side effect. Dont jack up your transfer ratio too much, even if it means you could have grown faster.


Nomad wrote:What I'm not getting.
How can you make any alliance program work under this system (1K, 2K, even 10K UU a day is not an alliance program, its a joke, so dont even spew that BS)
How can you make loans of an size that will have any decent effect(same as above, 5, 10, even 25 bill loan is peanuts, so don't even go there)
One person sends the other 500 bil kuwal, both person's ratios will make a jump and the game will notice it and watch them.
Then over the next few weeks the loan gets repaid slowly which means both people's ratios will start correcting again (as well as correct through their natural growth) and end up wherever they started from.

Last but not least:
Who will be affected radically by this update?
The people who keep sending their resources away day after week after month, not allowing their account to grow, resulting in their ratio to eventually pass 20% and then keep increasing all the time until they are noticed, warned and banned for feeding.
As declared illegal by Specific rules #1
1) Having a friend login in order to do anything in which your account will benefit and which is beyond "teamwork" for whatever reason is forbidden.
A friend doesn't play anymore so he repeatedly loggs in to send you his resources which his account produces.


Last edited by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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2) If I ask stupid questions it's only because sometimes people aren't smart enough to ask these themselves.
3) Being condescending to some people helps me keep my sanity when I am forced to interact with them.

I hate PR, will never engage in it and will rain destruction on all who refuse to use their brains to think before they speak.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:52 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote: my post got deleted?... & I got a warning for spamming, & I said basically the same thing...
You didn't say anything, not until you made that spam section thread.
You posted 4 emoticons, just like ishurue did, that's spam, the post got moved and you got warned.
Want me to move the posts back and show everyone?

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2) If I ask stupid questions it's only because sometimes people aren't smart enough to ask these themselves.
3) Being condescending to some people helps me keep my sanity when I am forced to interact with them.

I hate PR, will never engage in it and will rain destruction on all who refuse to use their brains to think before they speak.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by ian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:56 pm

Guys chill. Go take a cold shower or something, gather your thoughts into a less heated post.... then ask admin the questions.

"Shouting" at him is probably counter-productive - not to mention new players visiting this forum are likely to check game-suggestions and upcoming updates sections the most, so any heated/rude/offensive language used in this sections leaves a wrong impression.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would say admin does need to give more clarification - however as far as I can tell the update has not *yet* been implemented... and when it is I fully expect admin to do a news page update which will include the relevant information/explanation on how the system works - much like he has in the past with updates.

So please guys.... cut the whining, swearing and heated posts.

That said - from what I ve picked up (to answer some of nomad's Q's) in various topics concerning this update:

- The 20% will be based on account value. By account Value I m guessing its:

- Amount invested into unit production

- Amount Invested into weapon research

- Amount Invested into techs

- Amount Invested into covert/assassin skill levels

- Amount Invested in construction yard options (i.e. weapon/training facilities)

- Army Size Value (worked out some way or another, and factoring in all the different units and their different values)

- Amount invested in weapons.

- Military Experience Factored in somehow i.e. to factor in "investments" made into a player's account i.e. defence & attack supers, weapons, spies, assassins etc... which have since been lost in war... but not necessarily been "wasted" (since every loss in war- inevitably is a good investment with regard to the primary purpose of the game I.e. war).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Admin, could you confirm whether I m on the right track (i know I won't be right 100% lol), or whether I m completely wrong? Smile

Now... if I m on the right course, then admin is right - alliance projects, loans etc.. WILL be able to go ahead.

@ Nomad. Imagine how much your account value is worth IF I m right about the above. Now consider you could loan, give or receive up to 20% of that value.... while its true smaller less developed players will be able to recieve/ loan or give less... Unless i m very much mistaken, thats actually one of the reason's admin is even doing this update (to prevent a player from being able to jump miles ahead of where he should be via external help).

On a side note.... If the above is right - admin could you maybe think about setting a minimum amount player's can recieve/give before redlining?

I.e. if i were to send 1billion kuwal to a active new player with a U.P of 200 and a army size of 16k.... I d hazard a guess that 1billion would be more than 20% of their value lol.... so maybe set the minimum at something like 5billion or something? That way new players can be helped still....

Anyway... guys just chill. I m sure admin knows what he's doing and that all will become clear soon enough....

Edit: Admin posted the above 2 messages while i was typing this up lol
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:02 pm

You're very much on the right track.
Account value was meant to be based off the basic, easy to calculate stats:
Population
Unit Production
Techs

Con yard options were not intended to be included however I will probably add at the very least training and weapon facilities

I am not sure weapon armaments would be included, although see next point about war exp.

Although I had not considered adding war exp values into it, I am very much in favor of adding that whatever items you LOST (notice how it's LOST not KILLED) count towards your account value as that makes absolute sense.
Thank you for that, albeit in retrospect from my side, obvious idea.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by ian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:04 pm

Admin wrote:
Nomad wrote:20% of what?
Hell 20% of anything for a new account is about nothing for an older one.

How IS it possible to do alliance programs? 20% of what is all you can donate, and you cant donate it to 1 guy as it will put him far over 20%
20% of your account value
Until the end of the post, when I say increase ratio it means that you're increasing the net amount of resources that went into your account. Decreasing ratio means decreasing the net amount of resources went into your account.

Nomad wrote:Can you not see why we have problems understanding?
I keep writing posts answering all questions people have and yet I seem to be writing the same thing over and over again.
I see 2 major issues.
Me having selected a bad approach in introducing an update that will make sure less people get banned for feeding.
And people writing their own posts too much and reading my posts too little, meaning I have to reply to one answer multiple times because it's different people asking it.

Nomad wrote:Lets say you got 10 people identical size, how can they do anything? you send 20% to someone else AND YOUR BOTH REDLINED!!!!!! WOW great alliance program.

Again same point, if i send 20% to someone smaller then me, then BAM we both redlined again. Once again, great alliance program.
Spoiler:

Admin wrote:then again only if you're found to not work to improve your ratio then you might get into actual trouble, until then you'll just get some occasional automatic message.
Admin wrote:There will be no hard limit where by reaching it you will automatically get punished or cannot send or receive resources.
There will be a recommended value, currently the idea is around 20-25% of your account value (so you can reduce this % by simply growing)
You get redlined, ok great, where's the problem with that? I've said on multiple occassions (see spoiler above) that just because someone gets redlined doesn't mean they are in trouble.
You get in trouble if you get redlined and then keep worsening your ratio for weeks and months on end.

So for the 4th time now (3rd time was where it's mentioned in the wiki page):
Whether you're below or above 20% is not important, what's important is that you dont keep increasing it over long periods of time

How do you increase the ratio:
Sell resources for high rates through the broker
Receive resources from others
Reduce your account value

How do you reduce the ratio:
Sell resources for low rates through the broker
Send resources to others
Let your account grow

So let's see, a guy with 3k army get's a 50 bil present from someone. They use that to build their up.
They end up with a ratio of almost 100% then.
In 10 days, they will produce 100k units, and by doing that their ratio will drop to 73%.
Conditions for not being in trouble have been met. Case closed.


Nomad wrote:And lastly since you made it retroactive then many will be at 40%, 50%, or higher and how many MONTHS will they have to sit on their friggan hands and no longer play just to keep from getting banned?
If someone is on 50% already, that means they could be sending away 40% of what their account produces and still be reducing their ratio slowly.
Doesn't look like sitting on their hands to me.

Nomad wrote:How is getting massed/killed in war going to effect this? If its based on account value, and your already way over your "allowed" ratio, then you get massed and your account value drops even furture then how are you to ever get back into the green?
You get massed, your ratio increases obviously, you rebuild and it will automatically drop again. I see no problem
There was a discussion somewhere about making this game a bit less math based, well I think this would be sort of unexpected side effect. Dont jack up your transfer ratio too much, even if it means you could have grown faster.


Nomad wrote:What I'm not getting.
How can you make any alliance program work under this system (1K, 2K, even 10K UU a day is not an alliance program, its a joke, so dont even spew that BS)
How can you make loans of an size that will have any decent effect(same as above, 5, 10, even 25 bill loan is peanuts, so don't even go there)
One person sends the other 500 bil kuwal, both person's ratios will make a jump and the game will notice it and watch them.
Then over the next few weeks the loan gets repaid slowly which means both people's ratios will start correcting again (as well as correct through their natural growth) and end up wherever they started from.

Last but not least:
Who will be affected radically by this update?
The people who keep sending their resources away day after week after month, not allowing their account to grow, resulting in their ratio to eventually pass 20% and then keep increasing all the time until they are noticed, warned and banned for feeding.
As declared illegal by Specific rules #1
1) Having a friend login in order to do anything in which your account will benefit and which is beyond "teamwork" for whatever reason is forbidden.
A friend doesn't play anymore so he repeatedly loggs in to send you his resources which his account produces.

Thanks for the confirmation admin. The update sounds fantastic and really well thought out.

My only 3 questions are:

1.) Where do we find our current account value (or will this be added in?)
2.) Is the update implemented already (just a bit confused by the above posts)
3.) Where will we find our trade-ratio (or whatever you ll call the thing which tells us how much we are giving/ recieving etc....?)
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:06 pm

Admin wrote:
kingkongfan1 wrote: my post got deleted?... & I got a warning for spamming, & I said basically the same thing...
You didn't say anything, not until you made that spam section thread.
You posted 4 emoticons, just like ishurue did, that's spam, the post got moved and you got warned.
Want me to move the posts back and show everyone?

Not really, you already made your ruling on that, I just want to know where it is now?(the pre-edited post) as I cannot find it anywhere in these forums, also it will not show that I was editing the message at the time it was "moved" so what is the point? I have already confessed to not knowing how everything works when posting, & was doing only what I knew to do to get my post completed when I got warned, & as far as I can tell had my post deleted. so I RE-posted a complete version in the spam section...
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:08 pm

@ ian
1) probably on the trade ratio page, see point 3
2) it's in works, along with several other modifications, It's a very extensive change however it will bring a few very appealing features such as brokering people without SS, brokering several resources with one broker, increased active broker limits
(for example the broker changes are all done, as well as the officer transfers from income and up)
3) base page will show the % along with green/red color in case you're beyond, as well as an actual trade ratio page with more detailed info (similar to the income page)

king, the post is in a hidden section, by a suggestion I dont delete posts anymore, just move them, however I can promise you that when I moved the posts of ishurue and you, all I saw was 4 emotes in each. Unfortunately I cannot see if you're editing a particular post at a specific moment.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:10 pm

Admin wrote:
Nomad wrote:20% of what?
Hell 20% of anything for a new account is about nothing for an older one.

How IS it possible to do alliance programs? 20% of what is all you can donate, and you cant donate it to 1 guy as it will put him far over 20%
20% of your account value
Until the end of the post, when I say increase ratio it means that you're increasing the net amount of resources that went into your account. Decreasing ratio means decreasing the net amount of resources went into your account.
gonna go blue this time, ok so your saying its perfectly fine to send a new account enough resources to make him 50%, 100%, 250% or even 500% as long as he slowly pays it back? and there is no time limit? correct? as long as you redline in 1 direction, which ever direction it is, as long as you actively work to change the direction then all is well?

Nomad wrote:Can you not see why we have problems understanding?
I keep writing posts answering all questions people have and yet I seem to be writing the same thing over and over again.
I see 2 major issues.
Me having selected a bad approach in introducing an update that will make sure less people get banned for feeding.
Yes, exactly. Very poor implementation followed up with horrible explination. The final product and idea behind it are fine. Lets hope we all learn from this mess.
And people writing their own posts too much and reading my posts too little, meaning I have to reply to one answer multiple times because it's different people asking it.

Nomad wrote:Lets say you got 10 people identical size, how can they do anything? you send 20% to someone else AND YOUR BOTH REDLINED!!!!!! WOW great alliance program.

Again same point, if i send 20% to someone smaller then me, then BAM we both redlined again. Once again, great alliance program.
Spoiler:

Admin wrote:then again only if you're found to not work to improve your ratio then you might get into actual trouble, until then you'll just get some occasional automatic message.
Admin wrote:There will be no hard limit where by reaching it you will automatically get punished or cannot send or receive resources.
There will be a recommended value, currently the idea is around 20-25% of your account value (so you can reduce this % by simply growing)
You get redlined, ok great, where's the problem with that? I've said on multiple occassions (see spoiler above) that just because someone gets redlined doesn't mean they are in trouble.
You get in trouble if you get redlined and then keep worsening your ratio for weeks and months on end.
You might should have shouted this before you started talking about banning "cheaters". we will let that go with the poor implimentation and worse explination tho, whats done is done.

So for the 3rd time now:
Whether you're below or above 20% is not important, what's important is that you dont keep increasing it over long periods of time

How do you increase the ratio:
Sell resources for high rates through the broker
Receive resources from others
Reduce your account value

How do you reduce the ratio:
Sell resources for low rates through the broker
Send resources to others
Let your account grow
I see issues, but dont think this is the time to express them as its all hypothetical, ill wait till i see hard facts as I may be wrong

So let's see, a guy with 3k army get's a 50 bil present from someone. They use that to build their up.
They end up with a ratio of almost 100% then.
In 10 days, they will produce 100k units, and by doing that their ratio will drop to 73%.
Conditions for not being in trouble have been met. Case closed.
So having a ratio of 73% is case closed? WTH is the point of the system if you can be at 73% when you redline at 25%?


Nomad wrote:And lastly since you made it retroactive then many will be at 40%, 50%, or higher and how many MONTHS will they have to sit on their friggan hands and no longer play just to keep from getting banned?
If someone is on 50% already, that means they could be sending away 40% of what their account produces and still be reducing their ratio slowly.
Doesn't look like sitting on their hands to me.
Ok, your telling me the some guys have to send away 40% of their account daily? and you find that fair? I thought you said you had to GROW your account to fix the issues? now your saying they have to GIVE it away? Who they going to give it to? isnt it going to redline those they are giving it to? Honest question.

Nomad wrote:How is getting massed/killed in war going to effect this? If its based on account value, and your already way over your "allowed" ratio, then you get massed and your account value drops even furture then how are you to ever get back into the green?
You get massed, your ratio increases obviously, you rebuild and it will automatically drop again. I see no problem
Please explain how getting massed increases your account value? You completely lost me here.

There was a discussion somewhere about making this game a bit less math based, well I think this would be sort of unexpected side effect. Dont jack up your transfer ratio too much, even if it means you could have grown faster.
ok, I get the last part, slow down so lazy people can catch up, but what in the heck does that have to do with math? how is any of this making it less math based?


Nomad wrote:What I'm not getting.
How can you make any alliance program work under this system (1K, 2K, even 10K UU a day is not an alliance program, its a joke, so dont even spew that BS)
How can you make loans of an size that will have any decent effect(same as above, 5, 10, even 25 bill loan is peanuts, so don't even go there)
One person sends the other 500 bil kuwal, both person's ratios will make a jump and the game will notice it and watch them.
Then over the next few weeks the loan gets repaid slowly which means both people's ratios will start correcting again (as well as correct through their natural growth) and end up wherever they started from.
THIS IS IT, This is what we been looking for. an actual time. So loans are allowable as long as they get paid back, so why couldnt you just say this from the beginning? would make things easier and less frustrating by far.


Last but not least:
Who will be affected radically by this update?
The people who keep sending their resources away day after week after month, not allowing their account to grow, resulting in their ratio to eventually pass 20% and then keep increasing all the time until they are noticed, warned and banned for feeding.
As declared illegal by Specific rules #1
1) Having a friend login in order to do anything in which your account will benefit and which is beyond "teamwork" for whatever reason is forbidden.
A friend doesn't play anymore so he repeatedly loggs in to send you his resources which his account produces.
Been easier to have posted the actual system first, instead of posting things you cant do and making people ask questions to find out what you can and cant do

Anyway, its exactly what I thought it would end up being, as long as you ACTUALLY play and ACTUALLY grow your account you can do pretty much anything, only difference is you may get an automated warning letting you know you need to go in the other direction for a bit.

It COMPLETELY stops $$ transactions except to admin where he has limited them.
It COMPLETELY stops cross server trades (you might can get away with small scale ones as long as your actively growing tho now that I think about it)

I see no down side to Any player who plays the game, only to those who give away their resources to others, meaning only the senders get effected, the recievers get no effect from this other then not recieving anymore.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by ian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:13 pm

Admin wrote:You're very much on the right track.
Account value was meant to be based off the basic, easy to calculate stats:
Population
Unit Production
Techs

Con yard options were not intended to be included however I will probably add at the very least training and weapon facilities

I am not sure weapon armaments would be included, although see next point about war exp.

Although I had not considered adding war exp values into it, I am very much in favor of adding that whatever items you LOST (notice how it's LOST not KILLED) count towards your account value as that makes absolute sense.
Thank you for that, albeit in retrospect from my side, obvious idea.

Cool, only including the lost units is a good idea - otherwise people will be actively killing one another to make their ratio's better if you include killed lol

Incidentally... this does sort of lead onto a bit of a suggestion I have then Razz - why not create a gladiatorial arena (accessible via the market/some link or something?) where player's can submit themselves into becoming a member of the arena (and able to withdraw at their will at any point).

ALL kills done by members of the arena against members of the arena *will* be counted towards the ratio/account value (thus helping reduce it) - as will all losses sustained.

Players can enter and leave at their will - but to prevent the arena option becoming too exploitable there will be a set limit on how often you can enter the arena and how long you can stay a member of the arena for.

I.e. You can be a member of the arena for a max of 96hours every 31 days or something and maybe a further limit to make it only possible to achieve XXX account value from kills before further kills no longer count towards the account value (this would prevent people from achieving HUGE increases in account value)

Thus players looking to further lower their ratio & improve their account value can become a member of the arena and consequently fight one another to have all their kills added to the account value.

I can foresee therefore personal war's making use of the option, players involved in alliance/empire wars... and it ll also help encourage "friendly" wars to take place Smile

Those therefore complaining that this limit stops projects or that their hands are tied due to not being able to trade as much as they want.... will have the ability to actively increase their account value in addition to the "normal" methods (i.e. growing) - at the cost of having to fight war(s) and consequently suffer some damage as a result.

Just a random suggestion which is sort of relevant to this update Razz
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:23 pm

I do see an exploit Ian, but i dont think its worth the cost.

You can have/pay/ask someone to mass you to increase your ratio.

Not sure its worth the cost, but could be done in a pinch.

I agree some way to make friendly wars more appealing is a good thing.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by ian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:28 pm

Nomad wrote:
Admin wrote:
Nomad wrote:20% of what?
Hell 20% of anything for a new account is about nothing for an older one.

How IS it possible to do alliance programs? 20% of what is all you can donate, and you cant donate it to 1 guy as it will put him far over 20%
20% of your account value
Until the end of the post, when I say increase ratio it means that you're increasing the net amount of resources that went into your account. Decreasing ratio means decreasing the net amount of resources went into your account.
gonna go blue this time, ok so your saying its perfectly fine to send a new account enough resources to make him 50%, 100%, 250% or even 500% as long as he slowly pays it back? and there is no time limit? correct? as long as you redline in 1 direction, which ever direction it is, as long as you actively work to change the direction then all is well?

Nomad wrote:Can you not see why we have problems understanding?
I keep writing posts answering all questions people have and yet I seem to be writing the same thing over and over again.
I see 2 major issues.
Me having selected a bad approach in introducing an update that will make sure less people get banned for feeding.
Yes, exactly. Very poor implementation followed up with horrible explination. The final product and idea behind it are fine. Lets hope we all learn from this mess.
And people writing their own posts too much and reading my posts too little, meaning I have to reply to one answer multiple times because it's different people asking it.

Nomad wrote:Lets say you got 10 people identical size, how can they do anything? you send 20% to someone else AND YOUR BOTH REDLINED!!!!!! WOW great alliance program.

Again same point, if i send 20% to someone smaller then me, then BAM we both redlined again. Once again, great alliance program.
Spoiler:

Admin wrote:then again only if you're found to not work to improve your ratio then you might get into actual trouble, until then you'll just get some occasional automatic message.
Admin wrote:There will be no hard limit where by reaching it you will automatically get punished or cannot send or receive resources.
There will be a recommended value, currently the idea is around 20-25% of your account value (so you can reduce this % by simply growing)
You get redlined, ok great, where's the problem with that? I've said on multiple occassions (see spoiler above) that just because someone gets redlined doesn't mean they are in trouble.
You get in trouble if you get redlined and then keep worsening your ratio for weeks and months on end.
You might should have shouted this before you started talking about banning "cheaters". we will let that go with the poor implimentation and worse explination tho, whats done is done.

So for the 3rd time now:
Whether you're below or above 20% is not important, what's important is that you dont keep increasing it over long periods of time

How do you increase the ratio:
Sell resources for high rates through the broker
Receive resources from others
Reduce your account value

How do you reduce the ratio:
Sell resources for low rates through the broker
Send resources to others
Let your account grow
I see issues, but dont think this is the time to express them as its all hypothetical, ill wait till i see hard facts as I may be wrong

So let's see, a guy with 3k army get's a 50 bil present from someone. They use that to build their up.
They end up with a ratio of almost 100% then.
In 10 days, they will produce 100k units, and by doing that their ratio will drop to 73%.
Conditions for not being in trouble have been met. Case closed.
So having a ratio of 73% is case closed? WTH is the point of the system if you can be at 73% when you redline at 25%?


Nomad wrote:And lastly since you made it retroactive then many will be at 40%, 50%, or higher and how many MONTHS will they have to sit on their friggan hands and no longer play just to keep from getting banned?
If someone is on 50% already, that means they could be sending away 40% of what their account produces and still be reducing their ratio slowly.
Doesn't look like sitting on their hands to me.
Ok, your telling me the some guys have to send away 40% of their account daily? and you find that fair? I thought you said you had to GROW your account to fix the issues? now your saying they have to GIVE it away? Who they going to give it to? isnt it going to redline those they are giving it to? Honest question.

Nomad wrote:How is getting massed/killed in war going to effect this? If its based on account value, and your already way over your "allowed" ratio, then you get massed and your account value drops even furture then how are you to ever get back into the green?
You get massed, your ratio increases obviously, you rebuild and it will automatically drop again. I see no problem
Please explain how getting massed increases your account value? You completely lost me here.

There was a discussion somewhere about making this game a bit less math based, well I think this would be sort of unexpected side effect. Dont jack up your transfer ratio too much, even if it means you could have grown faster.
ok, I get the last part, slow down so lazy people can catch up, but what in the heck does that have to do with math? how is any of this making it less math based?


Nomad wrote:What I'm not getting.
How can you make any alliance program work under this system (1K, 2K, even 10K UU a day is not an alliance program, its a joke, so dont even spew that BS)
How can you make loans of an size that will have any decent effect(same as above, 5, 10, even 25 bill loan is peanuts, so don't even go there)
One person sends the other 500 bil kuwal, both person's ratios will make a jump and the game will notice it and watch them.
Then over the next few weeks the loan gets repaid slowly which means both people's ratios will start correcting again (as well as correct through their natural growth) and end up wherever they started from.
THIS IS IT, This is what we been looking for. an actual time. So loans are allowable as long as they get paid back, so why couldnt you just say this from the beginning? would make things easier and less frustrating by far.


Last but not least:
Who will be affected radically by this update?
The people who keep sending their resources away day after week after month, not allowing their account to grow, resulting in their ratio to eventually pass 20% and then keep increasing all the time until they are noticed, warned and banned for feeding.
As declared illegal by Specific rules #1
1) Having a friend login in order to do anything in which your account will benefit and which is beyond "teamwork" for whatever reason is forbidden.
A friend doesn't play anymore so he repeatedly loggs in to send you his resources which his account produces.
Been easier to have posted the actual system first, instead of posting things you cant do and making people ask questions to find out what you can and cant do

Anyway, its exactly what I thought it would end up being, as long as you ACTUALLY play and ACTUALLY grow your account you can do pretty much anything, only difference is you may get an automated warning letting you know you need to go in the other direction for a bit.

It COMPLETELY stops $$ transactions except to admin where he has limited them.
It COMPLETELY stops cross server trades (you might can get away with small scale ones as long as your actively growing tho now that I think about it)

I see no down side to Any player who plays the game, only to those who give away their resources to others, meaning only the senders get effected, the recievers get no effect from this other then not recieving anymore.

Nomad buddy, please go re-read what admin is saying Sad

I refer to stuff like this:

Nomad wrote:If someone is on 50% already, that means they could be sending away 40% of what their account produces and still be reducing their ratio slowly.
Doesn't look like sitting on their hands to me.
Ok, your telling me the some guys have to send away 40% of their account daily? and you find that fair? I thought you said you had to GROW your account to fix the issues? now your saying they have to GIVE it away? Who they going to give it to? isnt it going to redline those they are giving it to? Honest question.

Admin isn't saying that at all - quiet the oppossite. He's using it as an example to illustrate just how FLEXIBLE the new system is.

I.e. you can be OVER the limit by 50% (in terms of what they ve sent) and still be sending away 40% of what they make and their ratio would keep reducing. I.e. being over 50% does NOT stop them from sending/trading resources... - since as long as they keep the 60% their account value WOULD be growing (growing faster than they are sending resources away) in which case the balance of account value (basically resources kept in the account) to resources sent would slowly shift back in favour of resources kept in the account i.e. account value.

I think you might be misunderstanding some of the critical aspects of this system lol


Last edited by ian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by seaborgium on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:28 pm

Nomad wrote:I do see an exploit Ian, but i dont think its worth the cost.

You can have/pay/ask someone to mass you to increase your ratio.

Not sure its worth the cost, but could be done in a pinch.

I agree some way to make friendly wars more appealing is a good thing.

Nomad I will give you 25t naq if you mass me in AW.

There ya go, now its easy to exploit it. With easy to get naq.

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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by ian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:35 pm

seaborgium wrote:
Nomad wrote:I do see an exploit Ian, but i dont think its worth the cost.

You can have/pay/ask someone to mass you to increase your ratio.

Not sure its worth the cost, but could be done in a pinch.

I agree some way to make friendly wars more appealing is a good thing.

Nomad I will give you 25t naq if you mass me in AW.

There ya go, now its easy to exploit it. With easy to get naq.

*coughs*.

So you d pay Nomad 25trillion to make his account value better? Razz Remember... if what admin said is a good indication - YOUR losses WILL be counted towards the account value anyway... its just what you kill won't be ordinarily.

What i m proposing is gladiators (members of the arena) would be able to include their kills while as a gladiator (kills only against other gladiators) to count towards the account value.

So to get a good gain it would probably have to be you massing nomad (since normally the attacker kills 2 - 3 more resources worth of the defender than they loose).... but at the cost of whatever you loose in the attacks, and at the cost to Nomad in terms of his defense losses.

Plus a simple XXX limit on the maximum amount of kills which can be gained & count towards the account value before they no longer count would solve that problem and mean only marginal gains could be made lol
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:38 pm

ian wrote:

Nomad wrote:If someone is on 50% already, that means they could be sending away 40% of what their account produces and still be reducing their ratio slowly.
Doesn't look like sitting on their hands to me.
Ok, your telling me the some guys have to send away 40% of their account daily? and you find that fair? I thought you said you had to GROW your account to fix the issues? now your saying they have to GIVE it away? Who they going to give it to? isnt it going to redline those they are giving it to? Honest question.

Admin isn't saying that at all - quiet the oppossite. He's using it as an example to illustrate just how FLEXIBLE the new system is.

I.e. you can be OVER the limit by 50% (in terms of what they ve sent) and still be sending away 40% of what they make and their ratio would keep reducing. I.e. being over 50% does NOT stop them from sending/trading resources... - since as long as they keep the 60% their account value WOULD be growing (growing faster than they are sending resources away) in which case the balance of account value (basically resources kept in the account) to resources sent would slowly shift back in favour of resources kept in the account i.e. account value.

I think you might be misunderstanding some of the critical aspects of this system lol

I hope and pray I am Ian, but even what you just said makes no sense. If your over 50% then sending stuff away is what you should be doing to counter it? but why should someone be forced to send 40% away at all, why cant they grow? I mean thats what I would do is to try to overcome a back ratio with growth, not with giving away what you worked for already?

But yes, I am sure I am not fully understanding this, but thats coupled with bad explinations from the beginning, but we working it out little at a time. Only way I can get a better handle is to ask questions.

seaborgium wrote:
Nomad wrote:I do see an exploit Ian, but i dont think its worth the cost.

You can have/pay/ask someone to mass you to increase your ratio.

Not sure its worth the cost, but could be done in a pinch.

I agree some way to make friendly wars more appealing is a good thing.

Nomad I will give you 25t naq if you mass me in AW.

There ya go, now its easy to exploit it. With easy to get naq.
Yeah, thats what i meant, but you said it better Smile
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by ian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:49 pm

Nomad wrote:
ian wrote:

Nomad wrote:If someone is on 50% already, that means they could be sending away 40% of what their account produces and still be reducing their ratio slowly.
Doesn't look like sitting on their hands to me.
Ok, your telling me the some guys have to send away 40% of their account daily? and you find that fair? I thought you said you had to GROW your account to fix the issues? now your saying they have to GIVE it away? Who they going to give it to? isnt it going to redline those they are giving it to? Honest question.

Admin isn't saying that at all - quiet the oppossite. He's using it as an example to illustrate just how FLEXIBLE the new system is.

I.e. you can be OVER the limit by 50% (in terms of what they ve sent) and still be sending away 40% of what they make and their ratio would keep reducing. I.e. being over 50% does NOT stop them from sending/trading resources... - since as long as they keep the 60% their account value WOULD be growing (growing faster than they are sending resources away) in which case the balance of account value (basically resources kept in the account) to resources sent would slowly shift back in favour of resources kept in the account i.e. account value.

I think you might be misunderstanding some of the critical aspects of this system lol

I hope and pray I am Ian, but even what you just said makes no sense. If your over 50% then sending stuff away is what you should be doing to counter it? but why should someone be forced to send 40% away at all, why cant they grow? I mean thats what I would do is to try to overcome a back ratio with growth, not with giving away what you worked for already?

But yes, I am sure I am not fully understanding this, but thats coupled with bad explinations from the beginning, but we working it out little at a time. Only way I can get a better handle is to ask questions.


Ok, lets say the player's account value is 680billion. Admin (for examples sake) values UU at 170,000 I.e. your account value amounts to 4million UU's worth.

You did have a account value of 1020 billion. However you ve just sent 2million UU away (340billion worth) in exchange for nothing... and are now left with a account value of 680billion.

Your sent ratio is 340billion
Your account value is 680billion.

Thats a 50% sending-ratio.

Lets say you make a value of 10billion resources a day. You send 3billion (30%) of this away to another player each day in exchange for nothing, and keep/invest the other 7billion.

After 10 days of doing this, your ratio's are thus:

Your sent ratio is 370billion
Your account value is 750billion

The ratio is thus (100/750)*370 = 49.3%

I.e. the ratio has dropped.

Having done the maths I can confirm admin was slightly wrong with what he was saying about 40% though, since 40% would be 4billion sent a day and keeping 6billion. After 10 days that would be:

Your sent ratio is 380billion
Your account value is 740billion.

(100/740)*380 = 51.35% I.e. a increase.

So basically.... even if your at 50% ratio you can send 30% of your resources away for nothing and as long as you invest the 70% the ratio will drop slowly over time.

I.e. 100 days later:

Your sent ratio is 640billion
Your account value is 1,440billion

(100/1,440)x640 = 44.44%

You can send a little over 30% each day and the ratio will drop steadily... but the exact % in such a example is somewhere between 30 - 40%, and I haven't got the time to work the exact figure out lol

The less you send away and the more you keep, the faster your sent ratio will decline.

As for recieving:

If your account value is 680billion and you recieve 2million UU (340billion) then thats:

Recieved: 340billion
Account Value: 1020billion

(100/1020)x340 = 33.3% recieved.

If you then receive a further 340billion worth then thats:

Received: 680billion
Account Value: 1360

(100/1360)x680 = 50%.

After that if you stop receiving resources and you make 10billion resources a day, and invest them into your account, after 100 days thats:

Received: 680billion
Account Value: 2360

(100/2360) x 680 = 28.81%

So as you can see the system is VERY well thought out and comfortably flexible with regard to player's freedom i.e. alliance projects, loans, gathering war-funds etc...

If you actively farm & raid and invest those resources into your account the ratio's will drop even quicker... and if you do the opposite of what your currently high in (i.e. sending resources away if your high in resources received) then the % will drop even quicker.

Suffice it to say though - Noone is being forced to send or receive nothing. As long as you keep a eye on your ratio's and know when to stop sending/receiving and instead investing into your account... you ll be fine

Hope that explains better? Smile



Last edited by ian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:02 pm

yes and no

it showed what i thought it would do, and thats allow long term loans and alliance programs, what I am missing from your example is more a question.

Why are you sending away resources in the above example?

My question is, if your 50% OVER but you want to grow, why are you forced to sell or give away? The whole point of the game is growth isnt it? improvement? not giving away stuff or intentionally nerfing your account?

I still question how if its based on account value, and your Over the limit, how getting massed adds to your account value as it seems to me less men, less weapons = lower account value, not higher?

Over all yes I understand the system, and I like it as it does allow loans as long as they are paid back, there are no hard limits, you can be over in either direction and still make a bad broker as long as your actively doing what ever it takes to correct the bad ratio. So all in all I'm fine with it now that a half way decent explination has been made.

Tho I would still like to see how the arrows will be used, and examples of automated messages, and how and where the account value and ratio are to be posted and veiwed.
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Re: Trade Balance System

Post by ian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:13 pm

Nomad wrote:yes and no

it showed what i thought it would do, and thats allow long term loans and alliance programs, what I am missing from your example is more a question.

Why are you sending away resources in the above example?

My question is, if your 50% OVER but you want to grow, why are you forced to sell or give away? The whole point of the game is growth isnt it? improvement? not giving away stuff or intentionally nerfing your account?

I still question how if its based on account value, and your Over the limit, how getting massed adds to your account value as it seems to me less men, less weapons = lower account value, not higher?

Over all yes I understand the system, and I like it as it does allow loans as long as they are paid back, there are no hard limits, you can be over in either direction and still make a bad broker as long as your actively doing what ever it takes to correct the bad ratio. So all in all I'm fine with it now that a half way decent explination has been made.

Tho I would still like to see how the arrows will be used, and examples of automated messages, and how and where the account value and ratio are to be posted and veiwed.

You don't have to send anything away.

If you want your sent ratio to grow as quickly as possible without receiving anything just invest EVERYTHING you make/ farm/ raid into your account and the ratio will drop even quicker.

Admin was merely pointing out and illustrating just how flexible the system really is via giving the example of someone having sent 50% of his account value away without receiving anything, STILL being able to give 30% of his account's production away each day (while investing the other 70%) and the ratio managing to decline steadily.

I.e. he's blasting everyone who's whining to him about the system preventing loans etc.. out of the water.

Say if you have a sent ratio of 50% and still want to give (as in give away freely, as opposed to loan etc... - since a loan implies you ll receive something back, therefore lowering your sent ratio even quicker) resources to people... you ll be able to continue to do so each day by giving up to 30% of your account's production a day away (or on a weekly/monthly basis if you prefer) and as long as you invest the other 70% that 50% ratio will steadily decline.

I.e. you ll still be able to give loans/ resources away - and likewise receive resources (see the receiving example i did).

Admin's point was merely a example to illustrate the flexibility of the system - and to counter all those who complain that the system is restrictive with regards to loans/ projects etc...

As for the massing bit - your spot on. It lowers your account value... not makes it higher....but if you re-read what admin said, you ll see he didn't say that at all - and infact said it would make the ratio (a.k.a sent or received) higher i.e. due to the account value being lower.

380billion sent ratio vs. 680billion account value is a sent ratio of 50%.

If 170billion value gets wiped out due to your being massed, thats:

380billion sent ratio vs. 510billion account value. Sent ratio is (100/510)x 380 = 74.50%

However if he does include losses in the Military Experience towards account value.... hopefully it won't matter if you get massed.

Edit: just noticed admin posted while editing lol


Last edited by ian on Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:19 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Adding in numerical example)
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