Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Admin on Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:16 pm

obviously not, the % is stat vs army size.
you leave the rest untrained you still only have 10% spies.

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Vesper on Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:56 pm

It isn't "impossible" for larger players to get the % medals. It is just very expensive and annoying. I received 2 last month.
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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by seaborgium on Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:45 pm

I have gotten 3 so far Very Happy

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Admin on Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:18 pm

yes nvm, it's an award, work for it.

if you're big pay a few hundred bil kuwal, dont see a problem with it.
will lock the topic soon

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:17 am

Admin wrote:yes nvm, it's an award, work for it.

if you're big pay a few hundred bil kuwal, dont see a problem with it.
will lock the topic soon

few hundred bill kewal my ass.


and to boot you call it illegal to move UU off your account to make it possible.

Thanks Admin. Any other changes you plan to make that screws long term players?
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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:30 am

Nomad wrote:few hundred bill kewal my ass.
and to boot you call it illegal to move UU off your account to make it possible.
Thanks Admin. Any other changes you plan to make that screws long term players?
it won't be illegal to move the uu's temporarily

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:37 am

Admin wrote:
Nomad wrote:few hundred bill kewal my ass.
and to boot you call it illegal to move UU off your account to make it possible.
Thanks Admin. Any other changes you plan to make that screws long term players?
it won't be illegal to move the uu's temporarily

it is now

care to respond to the other 2 points instead of just the 1 easy one? that might/can/will change at any point in time in the future?


My gripe is still the same, you added something AFTER release that GREATLY effects game play and made it MASSIVELY cheaper for new player to get something that is very possibly IMPOSSIBLE for other accounts to get realisticly.

If you want to prove me wrong then run the numbers and time frame required to get them off the largest account in the game, and prove the cost is just "a few hundred bill kewal"

By my calcs your looking at months of time and trillions of kewal, and thats just upfront cost, not even including any lost revenues/fees.
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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:27 pm

Admin wrote:
Nomad wrote:few hundred bill kewal my ass.
and to boot you call it illegal to move UU off your account to make it possible.
Thanks Admin. Any other changes you plan to make that screws long term players?
it won't be illegal to move the uu's temporarily

Can you define "TEMPORARILY"? What does this mean in terms of a long time player? 1 minute?, 1 hour?, 1 day?, 1 week?, 1 month?, 1 year?, In turn time what is temporary?... king
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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:20 pm

Nomad wrote:few hundred bill kewal my ass.
untrain 30 mil units, send them away for a day, meanwhile train a mil units of the required class to get a very high % of the remaining army.

how much would that be 200-300 bil kuwal?

and sorry I really can't find the other points, could I ask you to point them out?

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:42 pm

Admin wrote:
Nomad wrote:few hundred bill kewal my ass.
untrain 30 mil units, send them away for a day, meanwhile train a mil units of the required class to get a very high % of the remaining army.

how much would that be 200-300 bil kuwal?

and sorry I really can't find the other points, could I ask you to point them out?

So you really think training 1 mill men in an account with 2. 3, or 4 mill men already trained in the military will get you an award? Admin, please be serious. Actually look at real accounts ok? look at the cost to untrain and retrain multiple classes, loss of income, loss of the % fees.

Lets look at just covert. There are accounts in the game at roughly 60% of their population in covert/spies. So if you want to beat that you have to have 60% or more in covert. Now if you have lets say 2.5 mill men in your standing military then you have to train enough men in covert that your total covert force makes up 60+% of your total population. One of you math guys wanna help me out on this one?

And before you say it, yes you can untrain your spies and assassins, but not your strike nor def supers, so If you do it, and some ME chaser sees what your doing, you have lost hundreds of billions of kewal, hundreds of thousands of men, and gained absolutely no ground.

The other point you chose to ignore was this question.
Any other changes you plan to make that screws long term players?

I would also like to see Kong's question answered as well, but hope you answer alot of questions when you finish this "trade" update.


You still miss or dance around my true issue with this update, and I ask you to please address it head on.

Is it fair to change the game in a manner that makes it easy and quick for a new/small account to reach a goal it would take the largest/oldest in the game months upon months (if there are no "issues") and at a cost of 10's or 100s of times more in resources?

I mean you have the option to say yes, and thats fine. I think its a shitty way to do those who have supported you for so long but atleast I can accept and respect a straight answer even if I don't like it.
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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:57 pm

ok, a lot of undiscussed issues and the reply will be long.
FTR, I didn't ignore it, I honestly missed it.

I've now spent close to 20 hours on this new trade rework since friday evening. I'm making a lot of progress in the implementation but theres a lot left to do.
Before there's any more misunderstandings created by my non-thorough replies I'll announce a break from replying here until I got time to actually write something up that leaves little room for interpretation and answers all worries people have.

until then, I'll also repeat that I have suggested to people offering an alternative method of giving these medals. something like most units killed from said class in the last month or anything else

about your last question, you know very well that the reply will not be yes

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:22 pm

I can accept and respect that, I know this isnt easy for you.
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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by seaborgium on Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:23 pm

Right now the largest player SA47 has around 500k untrainables.

that means for him to get that to be 5% of his account, which leaves 95% to work on the awards.

his army would need to be 10m in size.
so say he is going for the spy/assn % he needs a min of 47% in spies, 31% in assn(this was the last time i looked)

He would need to make sure his def/atk are fully built/armed or else he can't do anything due to the no income = no training/arming gibberish.

spies - 4.7m *45k = 211,500,000,000
assn - 3.7m*45k = 166,500,000,000
thats just to train that many.

so right now SA is setup like this for income units

30m farmers, 1m workers
so to get the % right he needs the following setup

500k untrainables
8.4m spies/assassins
1.1m income units.
so he would be untraining 30m farmers, 265,980,000,000
I know there's 100k missing, but that's to account for the UU that will be made based on UP.

so for him to get eh spie/assn % awards, he would need to spend
643,980,000,000 Kuwal. Also he would be sending away 30m UU if direct send he would lose 300k when sent the first time, and then another 270k when being sent back. For almost a loss of 570k uu, which in this current market can sell for an easy 175k comes to 99,750,000,000.
thats just for those 2 awards, he would most likey also get 2 other medals too but still thats over 700b for that, then theres the others, granted not as costly just due to hes already untrained and sent away the UU.
Now consider the lost income due to them being monthly medals.

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:29 pm

seaborgium wrote:Right now the largest player SA47 has around 500k untrainables.

that means for him to get that to be 5% of his account, which leaves 95% to work on the awards.

his army would need to be 10m in size.
so say he is going for the spy/assn % he needs a min of 47% in spies, 31% in assn(this was the last time i looked)

He would need to make sure his def/atk are fully built/armed or else he can't do anything due to the no income = no training/arming gibberish.

spies - 4.7m *45k = 211,500,000,000
assn - 3.7m*45k = 166,500,000,000
thats just to train that many.

so right now SA is setup like this for income units

30m farmers, 1m workers
so to get the % right he needs the following setup

500k untrainables
8.4m spies/assassins
1.1m income units.
so he would be untraining 30m farmers, 265,980,000,000
I know there's 100k missing, but that's to account for the UU that will be made based on UP.

so for him to get eh spie/assn % awards, he would need to spend
643,980,000,000 Kuwal. Also he would be sending away 30m UU if direct send he would lose 300k when sent the first time, and then another 270k when being sent back. For almost a loss of 570k uu, which in this current market can sell for an easy 175k comes to 99,750,000,000.
thats just for those 2 awards, he would most likey also get 2 other medals too but still thats over 700b for that, then theres the others, granted not as costly just due to hes already untrained and sent away the UU.
Now consider the lost income due to them being monthly medals.

So what happens when he gets massed with no spies or assassins? It would be increadably easy to erase a large amount of men and weapons when you have no covert nor assassins.

Also, how mant times do you have to do this to get the awards? Loss of income for the time with the UU sent away, and the time it takes to retrain them, and the loss of income while retraining them, etc, etc, etc
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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by seaborgium on Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:41 pm

1. the massing would be an issue period. If your not a small player you would need to be on ppt at end of month, so that you can drop some of the spies/assn not to be a target.
2. You would only need to send once, due to % of UU loss is too high, then each month you keep reworking the same UU to until you got it
3. I didn't think of the income for retaining.

If you would like I could work it up and find the total cost for all of the medals.

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:19 pm

seaborgium wrote:1. the massing would be an issue period. If your not a small player you would need to be on ppt at end of month, so that you can drop some of the spies/assn not to be a target.
2. You would only need to send once, due to % of UU loss is too high, then each month you keep reworking the same UU to until you got it
3. I didn't think of the income for retaining.

If you would like I could work it up and find the total cost for all of the medals.

go for it if you have that much free time.
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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by seaborgium on Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:55 pm

So now to get the miners medal SA would need 96% miners

keeping the 500k which now needs to equal 4%
The army size is now up to 12.5m
To untrain the 8.4m = 169,797,600,000
To untrain the workers 1.1m = 10,292,700,000
to train 12m miners = 120,000,000,000

now for the workers.
this one I don't really know, I haven't looked into it.
we will keep the same 96%
to untrain 12m miners = 118,284,000,000
to train 12m workers = 90,000,000,000

Now for farmers,
this one I don't really know, I haven't looked into it.
to untrain 12m workers = 112,284,000,000
to train 12m farmers = 60,000,000,000

So that leaves the def/atk ones.
I would need to do a bit of research bc I don't know what the max % are however I do know that the current highest def in game is 10b so get the top def award would need to beat that def, so....
seeing as I am sure SA doesn't want more supers we will use regulars where are half as strong as supers. So using 12698 as his power per regular. He needs another 166258 regular units.
so
untrain 166258 farmers = 1,472,048,332
to train as 166258 regular def units = 249,792,000
to arm 166258 units = 86,786,676,000

Now for atk, to get top strike thats around 6b, just guessign as I haven't found who has it yet. SA needs to add 156881 atk regulars
to untrain 166258 atk regulars 2,944,096,664
to train 156881 = 235,321,500
to arm 156881 = 81,891,882,000

So after selling off the weapons he would get back 101,207,134,800 kuwal

So for SA to do all of that would cost him 1,498,218,116,496 kuwal. After selling weapons his final cost is 1,397,010,981,696 kuwal.
Also that will take about 6 months to get all the % medals. mind you for them 12 months someone else is holding on to the 30m uu. thou be the end its only 28m, unless SA created 2m uu, or just bought them.

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:41 pm

wait a sec, why do you need to arm the units if you're just going for the % things

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:27 pm

Admin wrote:wait a sec, why do you need to arm the units if you're just going for the % things

so 6 months and 1.5 trill kewal WITHOUT counting lost revenues from someone else holding all the UU during the 6 months.


I think that definitely classes as "more then just a few hundred bill kewal"

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by ian on Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:30 pm

Here's a question for Nomad and Sea to consider:

How many % points in tech could you get for those costs - and are they more than the personal bonus points?

Answer: i m gonna put my head on the line and say investing in tech would be a lot more cost effective than investing into getting the medal.

Consequently... why bother? lol

In my eyes the medals are mainly for a distraction. Yes the personal bonus points are very nice to get... but if your worried about small players getting the extra PB and you not due to their joining after the PB & medals were implemented - rather than looking at it as a "unfair" and a "missed opportunity" in favour of the small guys against the large guys (which is what the issue seems to be mainly) - why not instead view it as simply a little extra help to the newer players joining AW to give them slightly more strength vs. the older/larger players... who inevitably are going to be leagues in front of them anyway unless they somehow cripple their account, sell tons of their account or whatever....

So basically view the medals you can't get as something not dissimilar to AE - something which helps on a tiny minor detail to give the smaller guys slightly more balance against a overwhelming balance in favour of the larger guys.

Alternatively view them as simply medals to reflect the choices you make ingame - someone who chooses to keep their army size small via selling/ giving UU away and consequently finds it easily achievable to get the medals your all discussing and thus benefit from the PB gained.... is merely benefiting from the outcome of a decision he took at the cost of something else (i.e. income) - just like larger players benefit from the larger income/ economy they ve decided to follow - at the expense of something else (i.e. getting the medals).

Frankly admin I wouldn't even bother with this update. The medals reflect player's decisions and the potential pro's and con's of those decisions.

They are also medals because not everyone is supposed to ever get all of them - to get one is supposed to be a achievement... a achievement which inevitably reflects player's decisions and game-styles.... i.e. if your a peaceful player you d expect to get the peace-related medals and not necessarily the war-related medals... and viceversa.

Why then if your large should you expect to get the medals aimed at those who are small/ play to stay small?

This update is unnecessary. Admin you can do stuff which is a lot more constructive with your time for the good of the game (or your own life) than worrying about a minor update and all the time it takes to argue/read this thread i.e. such as working out what the research center 2 will do, how you ll implement airforces etc... - all of which i think its safe to say I speak for 90% of the server - we d rather see progress in that sort of stuff than in minor updates like this lol

Just my thoughts... i m sure not everyone will like them... but oh well
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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:52 pm

time required to change what is needed to get this award = 1-2 hours
time to make airforce = 1-2 weeks

i'm looking at this because as you said in the other thread, plug the holes first, dont add water.

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by seaborgium on Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:55 pm

Admin wrote:wait a sec, why do you need to arm the units if you're just going for the % things

Good question, but I was also figuring if ya got that much trained, why not get the #1 awards too.
So that brings his total down to
1,329,539,558,496 if he doesn't have to arm them to get the % awards.

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Nomad on Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:11 pm

ian wrote:
Spoiler:
Here's a question for Nomad and Sea to consider:

How many % points in tech could you get for those costs - and are they more than the personal bonus points?
Guessing I would say definitely.
Answer: i m gonna put my head on the line and say investing in tech would be a lot more cost effective than investing into getting the medal.
I'm going to agree with you.
Consequently... why bother? lol
So you are completely fine with an account built EXACTLY like yours, manned like yours, same techs and training as yours, being more powerful then yours ONLY because he started later then you did and was able to get a "distraction" such as a medal? If so then by all mean, Do Not Bother.
In my eyes the medals are mainly for a distraction. Yes the personal bonus points are very nice to get... but if your worried about small players getting the extra PB and you not due to their joining after the PB & medals were implemented - rather than looking at it as a "unfair" and a "missed opportunity" in favour of the small guys against the large guys (which is what the issue seems to be mainly) - why not instead view it as simply a little extra help to the newer players joining AW to give them slightly more strength vs. the older/larger players... who inevitably are going to be leagues in front of them anyway unless they somehow cripple their account, sell tons of their account or whatever....
You see this the same as admin, and neither of you will address the root issue, you prefer to dance around it. Thats fine by me as I'll continue to speak my peace until you decide to address the real issue. Making changes to the game that fundamentally alter many decisions made when it comes to account structuring AFTER the fact, and then offering no viable means to change the account structure based on the changes made. Sea has proven Admin hasnt looked at the true cost for an older and larger account, nor how small a cost for a new/smaller one. You also seem to be backing the idea of "Not" wanting to grow in AW? This is confusing to me as AW has made incredable progress in the ares most games are lacking in. The abuse of sniper/gorrilla tactics, ME hunters, etc, etc,,,,Now you want to start backing these?

Look My issue isnt with the cost, there should be one, Its with the way it is put in "After the fact" and the smart ass little remarks about how its just a "few bill kewal" when its very obvious its months and months of time and trillions in cost,,,,,,, and all this could/would have been done already IF it had been released from launch, not months after it.

NO, there should be no account stronger then another just due to how old it is, JUST LIKE no account should be stronger then another because its NOT as old as the other is.

So basically view the medals you can't get as something not dissimilar to AE - something which helps on a tiny minor detail to give the smaller guys slightly more balance against a overwhelming balance in favour of the larger guys.
If thats how you choose to view it thats fine. I do not. 3, 6, or 9 PBP are a damn sight more powerful then
something which helps on a tiny minor detail to give the smaller guys slightly more balance
Fact is they are obtainable by ALL, its just the fact it cost certain account 10s, 100s, or 1000s times more then others and thats what i have issues with.


Alternatively view them as simply medals to reflect the choices you make ingame - someone who chooses to keep their army size small via selling/ giving UU away and consequently finds it easily achievable to get the medals your all discussing and thus benefit from the PB gained.... is merely benefiting from the outcome of a decision he took at the cost of something else (i.e. income) - just like larger players benefit from the larger income/ economy they ve decided to follow - at the expense of something else (i.e. getting the medals).
So you are fine with admin changinf something that alters or changes the way you will, or would have built your account without giving you any warning or any way to undone the choices you have made on the standing game mechanics before the change? So you wouldnt mind losing 1 or 2% of your power to a newer or smaller account over a minor change? and when you get 10, or 20 of these minor changes and your account is 50% as powerful as someone else then you will still have no issue with it?

So lets just throw out a EXTREME example,,,, Admin says tomorrow that all accounts made after today get all techs, trainings, researches, and constructions at 1/2 price and double the PBP then standing accounts unless you do "this" "thst" and "those" which would cost you about 1 yrs time, effort, and resources. I mean its just helping the new guys right? but what happens in a yr? or 2? or 5? These "Minor" changes make major differences.

Frankly admin I wouldn't even bother with this update. The medals reflect player's decisions and the potential pro's and con's of those decisions.
Now here I do actually fully agree with you, but then again this is my issue once more. These Effects were NOT an option until AFTER the fact, and then after they are brought in Admin says something will be put in place to help/allow those who DID NOT get to make the choice, to now make the choice to get them or not,,,,, and now once again months later its changing again by admin saying nothing will change!?!?!?!? I mean make up your damn mind already. If you had not said something would be done, then choices could have been made on that, not being made on what you said WOULD happen. BAHHHH
They are also medals because not everyone is supposed to ever get all of them - to get one is supposed to be a achievement... a achievement which inevitably reflects player's decisions and game-styles.... i.e. if your a peaceful player you d expect to get the peace-related medals and not necessarily the war-related medals... and viceversa.
Imma call BS on this one, you know same as we all do if there is a bonus tied to a medal then everyone will fight to get it even if it doesnt suit their style of play. Just like the "relations" medals.
Why then if your large should you expect to get the medals aimed at those who are small/ play to stay small?
This makes no sense since none of the medals are aimed at that group, and why would anyone want to "stay small" on AW? The game mechanics are not in favor of "staying small" any more then being a "lone wolf".
This update is unnecessary. Admin you can do stuff which is a lot more constructive with your time for the good of the game (or your own life) than worrying about a minor update and all the time it takes to argue/read this thread i.e. such as working out what the research center 2 will do, how you ll implement airforces etc... - all of which i think its safe to say I speak for 90% of the server - we d rather see progress in that sort of stuff than in minor updates like this lol
Oh again I agree, just want to point out if you "do stuff right to begin with and not half assed" then none of this would have ever occured would it? But all those things you mention Ian, Admins not working on, hes working on things never mentioned, implementing them with no warning, and then doing the same as he is here, having to back up and punt, or fix the issues that the update caused.
Just my thoughts... i m sure not everyone will like them... but oh well
Every person is intitled to an opinion mate.

You are just like admin is, and not addressing the real issue I have with this.

So you are telling me that you are perfectly fine with admin implementing something that changes the fundamental structure of the game and then not allowing but those who came "after" the update to use it? Or more accurately saying you can use it IF you gut your account for 6 months to a year and pay 100s or 1000s times the cost as another.


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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by ian on Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:33 pm

Nomad - yes I do have a issue with this update being implemented and players like yourself and myself not being able to ever realistically get the medals being discussed.

However it is only a minor issue. I would much rather admin spent his time elsewhere completing the game than worrying about updates such as this...

I would also have rather admin had spent the time he did on medals instead making some progress with the star-port, airforce, research center 2 etc... but what is done is done.

A simple solution would be for admin to simply adjust the medals requirements for those players with an i.d. above a certain number (the certain number based on the i.d. at which new players would be issued from around the time the medal update occurred - so those with i.d's before the update would have a different requirement to reflect by the time of the update they couldn't achieve the medals).

Perhaps the requirement could be tied to AE for those with the modified requirement? I.e. the higher the AE the lower % in training required to reflect the larger army and consequently the harder for that player to meet the medals current requirements (i.e. 95% in miners)?

Those who joined after the update would need to meet the "real" requirement. Those who joined before the update would need to meet a easier modified requirement to reflect that many could never practically get the current medals due to passing the point (i.e. where they could realistically have 95% of their army size in miners for example) when the update was released.

THAT would be my solution. Its not perfect... but probably doable and would hopefully keep all parties happy.
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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:48 pm

ian wrote:Perhaps the requirement could be tied to AE for those with the modified requirement? I.e. the higher the AE the lower % in training required to reflect the larger army and consequently the harder for that player to meet the medals current requirements (i.e. 95% in miners)?

THAT would be my solution. Its not perfect... but probably doable and would hopefully keep all parties happy.
I have a slightly modified solution but your basis is very much appreciated as it's much more simple to have working than the original idea with using army size as a second rank

It will still get ranked by %:
but let's say you have 5% trained as spies and your AE is at 40%. Your end % will be counted as 12.5% (since 40% is 2.5 times smaller than 100)
At 33% AE it'd count as if you'd have 15% already.
And it'd be very simple in execution, plus would only take about 10 minutes to implement.

From a financial point of view, you will be more than just 3 times larger if your AE is at 33% compared to someone who's AE is at 100%, but your income itself is also larger, so by dropping the expected cost to gain said medal to a third of its previous value, the amount of days worth of economic production for a player at 33% AE and 100% AE will come much closer together.

BTW ian, I stand by the decision to have done the awards. Especially the personal ones are a very good incentive to keep the new players entertained with the game until they get bigger.
Some of the global ones need fiddling, I do agree with that though

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Re: Medals involving % of one's army trained in a stat

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