Poll Results

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Re: Poll Results

Post by Vesper on Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:48 am

The baseO didnt tell me "exactly how many spies to send" that is basic math that i did myself and you know how I did the forumla as you told me I make it to complex.

Player B used the bug to gather information provded by a spy report thus saving himself covert turns which allowed him to sabotage players slightly more frequently, Used the bug daily and showed no remorse initially as he felt he was being treated unfarily. He then created a topic as the admin told him to if he felt that the bug exploit should be made public and the admin didnt feel like creating a topic in the public tribunal. As punishment the player had 3.5mil UU removed from his 6.4mil army, had all was record points removed that were gained by sabotage, all players sabbed by the player were compensated for their loses, and received a 1 day ban. Has pointed out bugs to admin frequently found on test server, no prior incidents.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by seaborgium on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:07 am

well truth vesper, what admin wrote was true. 'and also used the information from the base page to know exactly how many spies were necessary to send to be succesful.'

Now for mine, I had used it to see what was posted else where, IE # of units, I used to to see if they were still there. Yes I could see there covert info, but in order to sab, I still had to spy to see what spy level they had. I not fighting the 12 day ban, just trying to find a way to use up my time. wow was I really 9.8m in size?

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Re: Poll Results

Post by seaborgium on Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:27 am

So after these bannings is this over?

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Re: Poll Results

Post by Admin on Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:12 am

yes

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Re: Poll Results

Post by Nigatsu_Aka on Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:13 am

But I knew admin would keep randomly punishing long after the fact and continue to do sentences which is the only reason i decided to sell my account along with over 10 other players.

@Vesper Do not use this argument to make yourself a victim of the big bad admin... I think that admin is weak in this matter because he asked the comunity wheter some cheaters should be banned or not, when the answer was abvious: permaban. And i can tell you that at least half of the ones selling (including me) are not doing it because you were unfairly punished. You are not that good as you think you are to have "minions", masses of people to maneuver to press a decision from admin in your favour; the silly discussions and arguments that you bring over and over prove it that you are not innocent as you might want to make others believe.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by seaborgium on Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:19 am

1. I will agree with you Nigatsu_Aka, Vesper is trying to play words and other peoples actions.

2. For me if the shoe was on the other foot, IE myself not being one who used the said bug for this thread. I don't think a Permaban is the answer.
Reasons:The game already has a small player base. Things need to be looked at from all points to see if permabaning a player will cause more to leave just due to it happening.
-- now on that note, I do agree if something was done then there needs to be a punishment.
- The admin took resources from all the accounts, took any other items that were gained by using the bug. Also has taken time away from the players while others continue to grow/develop.
- Also the way admin has it shown ingame who has done what also hurts a players 'word', now the people who are here now know what happened and can make there own choice, that does not mean newer players will know wtf is going on.
- I am sure I missed more due to the fact I have had 3 hours of sleep and am at work.
3. While I doubt the other 10 players are selling due to vesper. I know 1 person who is selling with a direct result of the bug thing.. I know 6 that were selling before that ever came to light. I know 3 after but they never said it was due to this, they listed mainly RL items. After talking with some it is mainly due to the small player base. The fact that 1 alliance current controls the server.(please don't spam this with a argument about this, start a new one and I will be more then happy to explain.) and there is little to no action mainly due to peoples small accounts and the heavy cost to go to war. No 1 account can do it alone on short notice, over time yes 1 person can get enough but show me 1 person willing to stop all grow to mass someone, since they will get smaller after wards anyways...

At this time I would like to ask kenzu to say a word or 2. I know he has helped me in the past with some issues. He also has an insite with admin that none of us can get to. I would like to see what he has to say and what ideas/thoughts he has while trying to help the game become bigger/better.

***I am sure my thoughts didn't come out 100% right but I am sure someone will see my odd thought process***

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Re: Poll Results

Post by Vesper on Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:21 pm

So admin changed my banning to a perm ban again. I "think" its because I bought a new account to send messages ingame but I could be wrong.

Uro could you explain this one for me via forum PM or over msn or even here if you want.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by ian on Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:07 pm

Admin should have a log of everything done on that account. I.e. attack logs, trade logs etc....

If you didnt' trade with anyone, or attack anyone, then honestly... i can't see why that would be - especially considering you got about 2 weeks more punishment than everyone else (including Damgood who's "crimes" weren't much more different to yours).

I actually removed that account from The Imperium for being so inactive, and have since been farming it myself - so i know for a FACT you barely log into it, and pretty much only use it to keep in touch with people.

In short - i can't see any wrong actually being done. If admin's actually using that as an excuse to extend your ban, despite the lack of any form of harm/wrongness - then that would itself be wrong.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by Admin on Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:01 pm

What should I comment on?

About you bypassing the ban and partially making it pointless
Making me look like an idiot that I ban someone but they still do stuff (whatever that includes) ingame
You apparently still failing to understand the concept of how you should ask me about anything when there's obviously a reasonable chance that I'll not allow it

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Re: Poll Results

Post by ian on Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:11 pm

Admin wrote:What should I comment on?

About you bypassing the ban and partially making it pointless
Making me look like an idiot that I ban someone but they still do stuff (whatever that includes) ingame
You apparently still failing to understand the concept of how you should ask me about anything when there's obviously a reasonable chance that I'll not allow it

So, let me get this straight:

You permanently banned Vesper and his IP Address.
Removed the permanent ban and the IP Address Ban.
Removed the ban on his account and removed population from his account.
Temporarily banned his account and removed more population from his account - stating this was an end to the punishment.
Banned his account permanently on the ground's of his buying an account mainly to message/ keep in tough with other player's.

Couple of issues there. First the 1month ban was on his account - not on himself (i.e. that would be a IP Address ban). In that time Vesper's not been able to access the account - and the account has been denied to him for the time allocated to the ban. He's not been able to grow it, develop it or do anything else with it. That was the purpose of the ban and its punishment.

His buying another account shouldn't have anything to do with it. IF his ban was a IP address ban it should have - as in that circumstance he shouldn't be on Aderan War's (i.e. you would have banned him from the game). But its not - you banned his account for XXX days, not himself. So how then can you justify permanently banning Vesper's account for his purchasing another account - despite there being absolutely no impact on the degree or effects of the punishment (Vesper's account being held back by how ever long the ban was?).

Even more importantly how can you justify a jump from 1 month to 2 years for logging onto a account he purchased and doing hardly anything more than messaging players? He did *nothing* wrong. You didn't ban him from the game - you banned his Vesper account. When you *permanently* banned Ioz & Seaborgium initially you stated they could be free to create/buy a new account and continue to play Aderan War's - how is Vesper's using a account to MESSAGE people he brought any different? It gets ridiculous when you consider with that purchased account he:

- Didn't attack anyone
- Didn't trade with anyone
- Barely, very very infrequently banked that account
- Barely, very very infrequently trained UU on that account
- Barely, very infrequently logged into that account.

Can his ban being extended by a couple of days be justified for his trying to be a smartass/ failing to clarify whether it was alright to access a account he brought? Yes

Can his account being set to 25months ban instead of the initial 1month ban (i.e. 25 times more severe) for buying a account and using it to occassionally message people and even less frequently train/ bank stuff be justified? Absolutely not.

If you ban players you ban their IP Address. You banned Vesper's account - not him. You also *frequently* let other player's with the same IP address who some of us have told you are the *same* player's frequently remain active on the game - even when those account's are linked i.e. commanders/ officers etc... and deeply suspicious.

Your taking this completely out of all proportion. What damage has Vesper's buying and barely accessing another account done to anyone? What harm has been caused to justify the punishment being increased to 25 times its severity? The Punishment should fit the crime - and in this case Vesper's "crime" was buying a second hand account and barely using it while his main account was banned - something which you stated to be ok for Seaborgium and Ioz to do when seaborgium's and Ioz's main account's were banned (at the time permanently). You'd think someone buying/creating a account and using it to play the game with a TEMPORARY ban wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as someone buying/ creating a account and using it play the game with a PERMANENT ban - something which you were apparently ok with. The logic to that would be to get a permanent ban you d have to do something far more severe than what you d have to do to get a temporary ban.

Just stick 3 or 4 more days to his ban, and make it clear for future reference there is no longer a distinguishment between a IP Address Ban (person) and account ban (just the account) - a distinguishment you ve actually created yourself via the initial way you issued punishments (IP Address Ban's to more severe offenders, Account ban's to less severe offenders). His failing to clarify stuff is hardly enough to warrant the punishment being increased to 25 times the severity though.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by Admin on Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:40 pm

The "25 times" more is just a random amount.
So technically it shows that I haven't actually banned him permanently.
But I just put in a long time so that I'm not under time pressure to resolve this issue. Cos apparently that's the style that people like to deal with, dont bother solving issues quickly.

I'm not going to run after people anymore when they screw up. It's up to them to contact me.
It's been 2 days that I banned the other account, vesper made no effort whatsoever in contacting me

All I can see right now is an exact repeat of the situation that we had a month ago.
There's been obviously no change in his attitude whatsoever. So right now there is nothing in my power that I am able to do.

PS: In case you are trying to imply that not banning his IP address for the duration of the ban was something that allows to draw any conclusion to the intention of the ban and the possible consequences of using another account for whatever purposes, then as said countless times on the forum, you should have asked first.
He didn't ask, so he was obviously accepting whatever my opinion was and apparently knew what my opinion would be.
Which only allows for the conclusion that he knew too well what the potential consequences might be and by doing what he did he also accepted these consequences as part of the bargain.

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Re: Poll Results

Post by Casshern on Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:53 am

well buying another account i would see as being against the rule of one account per person. if hes account is banned then its still his active account ad new account means he has 2. Also there is other ways to contact people then ingame
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Re: Poll Results

Post by ian on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:11 am

Admin wrote:It's been 2 days that I banned the other account, vesper made no effort whatsoever in contacting me

Wouldn't that point to his barely using/logging into the account? I.e. his only logging in today for the first time? That kinda fits in with everything else we know, which is:

1.) He didn't use it to farm/ raid *anyone* (points to inactivity)
2.) He didn't trade with anyone despite having supporter status (points to inactivity)
3.) He barely banked kuwal/ trained Untrained Units (points to inactivity)
3.) Its taken him 2 days to even notice its banned (points to inactivity)

Inactivity = lack of a willingness to actively interact with or play aderan wars. It points to some other purpose being behind the account purchase instead - such as an intention to use it to communicate or otherwise to wait for the resources (to transfer to main account upon the main account being unbanned).

Harm & Damage done to *anyone* on Aderan Wars or the game in general = Nill.

Intention to use the account to get around the ban? = No intent. Its pretty obvious from the facts - given the lack of *any* serious activity on his part - that Vesper deliberately and intentionally restricted his activity to a minimal level - mainly that of communication (for where he couldn't contact people eithier on msn or on any forums).

If he really was trying to get around the ban its fair to say he'd have been much more active - farming, raiding, trading & banking. Any "addittional" (on top of all the extra you ve given Vesper vs. everyone else) punishment you give has to take that into consideration - basically a lack of intention to deliberately play Aderan War's while "banned" and the lack of *any* damage, harm or negative impact on Aderan War's or its players.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by ian on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:15 am

Casshern wrote:well buying another account i would see as being against the rule of one account per person. if hes account is banned then its still his active account ad new account means he has 2

Then if thats the case I d suggest admin ban everyone else who's brought an account & logged in a couple of times to transfer resources. Those player's also had more than one account per person - and its *easily* arguable the effects of their conduct (i.e. 100,000's of UU and billions of kuwal being transferred between account's) will have influenced Aderan War's to a massively greater extent than anything Vesper's done regarding the suppossed 2nd account.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by Vesper on Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:15 am

Yeah I said Hi to you over MSN. I just found out today that my account had the ban extended and posted here asking you to contact me over msn or forum PM or if you felt like it even post publically. As for in one of your posts you saying I made you appear as an idiot by using a second account to send a simple message to people in the game well nobody knew who I was except for 2 people maybe 3 so nobody was viewing you as an idiot and this was not some grand scheme to break any rules. Just a way to contact friends, Ian was without MSN for over 2 weeks and I was curious what was going on. I logged in and messaged Ian asking what was going on with him and after I didnt get a reply for a few days I messaged SA and got his input on what was going on with the alliance since he also is never on msn. Those were the only 2 people knew who I was until well this incident here.

You banned the accounts as you banned ioz's old account even after he sold it. You banned the new owner for 6 days I believe as punishment to the account for what it was used for. He quit because of it but that is besides the point. You stunted my growth for about a month now which is exactly what I thought the idea behind your banning was. Hurt my growth since I hurt others? If i felt it was doing something wrong by using an old account that i purchased off a friend to send messages to other players in game I wouldnt have bought the account in the first place.

@ Casshern I have no idea what so ever what you mean when you say there are other ways to contact people ingame if you have no account. If you know a way let me know.

I was really hoping to avoid making a scene this time as its not really worth it. Basically Uro messaged me on MSN saying "hi". I got back from work and said "hi" back. Then a few days later I go to log into my account to see how much time is left and its banned much longer. I simply posted here asking what was going on and asked admin to message me. Thats it.

The original ban is over in 7 days if anyone was curious about that. Now it stands that the random number of days admin entered I have another 697 days. He most likely entered in 700 days and I didnt check until today.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by Vesper on Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:24 am

ian wrote:
Admin wrote:It's been 2 days that I banned the other account, vesper made no effort whatsoever in contacting me

Wouldn't that point to his barely using/logging into the account? I.e. his only logging in today for the first time? That kinda fits in with everything else we know, which is:

1.) He didn't use it to farm/ raid *anyone* (points to inactivity)
2.) He didn't trade with anyone despite having supporter status (points to inactivity)
3.) He barely banked kuwal/ trained Untrained Units (points to inactivity)
3.) Its taken him 2 days to even notice its banned (points to inactivity)

Inactivity = lack of a willingness to actively interact with or play aderan wars. It points to some other purpose being behind the account purchase instead - such as an intention to use it to communicate or otherwise to wait for the resources (to transfer to main account upon the main account being unbanned).

Harm & Damage done to *anyone* on Aderan Wars or the game in general = Nill.

Intention to use the account to get around the ban? = No intent. Its pretty obvious from the facts - given the lack of *any* serious activity on his part - that Vesper deliberately and intentionally restricted his activity to a minimal level - mainly that of communication (for where he couldn't contact people eithier on msn or on any forums).

If you really want to validate that I was not trying to get around the ban and was hoping to grow and such you can compare my old attack and raid logs with multiple attacks a day from the Vesper account to the account that I used to message people having 6k turns and I think maximum ST since I never attacked anyone or did any attempt to grow the account.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by Casshern on Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:43 am

ian wrote:
Casshern wrote:well buying another account i would see as being against the rule of one account per person. if hes account is banned then its still his active account ad new account means he has 2

Then if thats the case I d suggest admin ban everyone else who's brought an account & logged in a couple of times to transfer resources. Those player's also had more than one account per person - and its *easily* arguable the effects of their conduct (i.e. 100,000's of UU and billions of kuwal being transferred between account's) will have influenced Aderan War's to a massively greater extent than anything Vesper's done regarding the suppossed 2nd account.

totally different situation as the person is not banned for one. vesper got a seconded account to play when he was banned from playing. whats the point in the admin banning people if they can just go and get another account to play on while they are banned and would he have transferred the resources at the end of the ban (if not why bother). Could also ask Ian if he was a member of Imperium would you be such an advocate when he is not
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Re: Poll Results

Post by ian on Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:49 pm

Casshern wrote:
ian wrote:
Casshern wrote:well buying another account i would see as being against the rule of one account per person. if hes account is banned then its still his active account ad new account means he has 2

Then if thats the case I d suggest admin ban everyone else who's brought an account & logged in a couple of times to transfer resources. Those player's also had more than one account per person - and its *easily* arguable the effects of their conduct (i.e. 100,000's of UU and billions of kuwal being transferred between account's) will have influenced Aderan War's to a massively greater extent than anything Vesper's done regarding the suppossed 2nd account.

totally different situation as the person is not banned for one. vesper got a seconded account to play when he was banned from playing. whats the point in the admin banning people if they can just go and get another account to play on while they are banned and would he have transferred the resources at the end of the ban (if not why bother). Could also ask Ian if he was a member of Imperium would you be such an advocate when he is not

If he was not a member of The Imperium then my stance would probably be more relaxed - but i would still oppose what admin is doing here. There is no actual damage or harm done. The player in question hasn't even *deliberately* bypassed the ban in order to play the game - he's merely used the account to send 2 or 3 messages.

Definition of play = actively banking, training Untrained Units (and not just once or twice in the space of several weeks), actively farming & raiding.

Vesper has done none of this. He's used the account to message people and thats mainly it. He could have "actively played" Aderan War's while banned - but instead he chose not to. His decision to not do so does point to his having no real intention of bypassing admin's ban. Did he screw up by logging in with a 2nd account? Yes. Should he be punished for this oversight? Yes probably. Should this punishment take into consideration that he didn't:

- Actively damage or harm the game in anyway
- Actively damage or harm any players in anyway
- Actively play (i.e. reguarly bank kuwal, train UU, farm & raid)

The Answer is yes it should. Even more importantly - it should be taken into consideration that Vesper deliberately restricted his activities ingame - even though at the time he believed admin to be unaware of his access to the game. IF he really was trying to actively play the game then he would have started to actively play it - reguarly banking, training UU, farming & Raiding. He didn't do any of this - and merely used the account to mainly message people. He had no idea that admin was watching the account - yet despite this he purposelly and intentionally restricted his access to mainly messages. That show's a willingness to respect the intended effects of admin's punishments - that of his account being set-back and "damaged" for his original violation of the BaseO bug. If he didn't respect the desired effects of the punishment - he would have played actively. He didn't.

The Punishment should fit the crime - can you honestly say he should be punished heavily for basically using a account to message people ingame? Maybe extend the ban by another 3 days or something (so about an extra 10% on top of the original punishment) - but not much more.

To my knowledge Admin's already lost 3 active (both ingame and on this forum) player's who have left Aderan War's over his decisions (whether regarding game updates or punishments) recently - and i only know a fraction of the server. I m sure there's even more out there (which if you ve noticed we normally only have about 25 - 30 people online throughout the day, hitting about 50 at peak hours... we used to have 45+ people, hitting 60 at peak-hours) . Do we really want people to start now considering his punishment's to be unjust and biased? Because that's exactly what's going to happen if admin does start blowing punishment's out of proportion.

There should be 3 components to be considered for any punishments, or extension of punishment's:

- Damage Done to Aderan War's (the game itself)
- Dame Done to other's using Aderan War's (the players)
- The intention of the offender - which can be concluded based on his conduct.

In this specific situation Vesper's intention can be summarrised:

- He intended to log onto Aderan War's without Admin knowing - this should be punished
- He intended to use the account for messaging people - i can't see why this should be punished
- He deliberately didn't actively play the game even though he believed admin to not know about his logging in. This show's some level of respect to the ban, and a desire to not actively diminish its effects (his main account being held back) - This should be commended and taken into consideration when deciding a punishment.

For the record: Had Vesper used the account to actively raid or farm. Had he used the account to *reguarly* log in to train UU and bank Kuwal - then i would agree with admin. That show's a deliberate intention to side-step the ban and that he clearly hasn't learnt. The fact he restricted his activity to basically sending necessary messages points to the complete oppossite of anyone trying to infer he used the account to side-step the ban and that he hasn't learnt. Clearly he has learnt to at least some extent- or otherwise he would have actively played Aderan War's while under the belief admin had no idea. He didn't.

Someone please tell me just what damage or harm has been inflicted to anyone or the game itself by Vesper's logging into a 2nd account he brought with $$$, and then used to message people with (remember no farming or raiding, and barely any banking/ training UU).
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Re: Poll Results

Post by Nigatsu_Aka on Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:49 pm

He could have messaged on MSN, in my opinion.

Messaging ingame relating to the game, is still playing. Because i assume that he didn't messaged about weather or other topics (to my trolls and haters: take this comment as a neutral comment - whoever was doing this, my opinion would have been the same).
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Re: Poll Results

Post by Casshern on Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:59 pm

what damage would be done if admin overlooked such a deliberate bypassing of the rules and whether it be to send messages (sorry still not a valid argument in my view, plenty of other alternatives e.g. ask an alliance mate on your forum to send message for him and relay any message received) or not and you say barely any banking or training of uu, surely even one such incident would be a breach. Sorry in my opinion a lot of the punishments have been too lenient and I voted and said that in polls. Also while I was in company as one of leaders had a few members check out (make sure everything was proper) as if there was one thing I didn;t want in my alliance it was cheats. Wonder can the same be said about all here.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by kingkongfan1 on Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:35 pm

I have tried to keep my thoughts to myself here but I decided that if others could state their opinions then so would I...
I personally think that both are at fault here;(Admin & Vesper) I do not really agree with what Admin has done; but on the flipside neither can I condone what Vesper did either.

@Casshern, & Nigatsu_aka- last I looked both of you were selling your accounts for $$$; so with you quitting the game what does it matter what goes on to either of you?
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Re: Poll Results

Post by seaborgium on Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:38 pm

wow, don't even know vesper or the whole story. Yet still smacks the 2 that are talking the most.

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Re: Poll Results

Post by Casshern on Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:36 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:
@Casshern, & Nigatsu_aka- last I looked both of you were selling your accounts for $$$; so with you quitting the game what does it matter what goes on to either of you?

while I am trying to sell my account for right price (which under current circumstances I doubt I'd get) I'm still playing. Also it still does matter surely people don't want to see situation where rule breakers are not punished.
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Re: Poll Results

Post by Nigatsu_Aka on Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:02 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:I have tried to keep my thoughts to myself here but I decided that if others could state their opinions then so would I...
I personally think that both are at fault here;(Admin & Vesper) I do not really agree with what Admin has done; but on the flipside neither can I condone what Vesper did either.

@Casshern, & Nigatsu_aka- last I looked both of you were selling your accounts for $$$; so with you quitting the game what does it matter what goes on to either of you?

Because I have a phobia for cheaters. Why do you think that i am intending to quit? I don't even want to make a proffit, i'm willing to sell for as much $ as i've put in the game. *insert comment - rather not*



[When the strongest alliance in the game does everything possible to discover bugs, keeps them secret and uses them and then when the admin wants to take actions against the cheaters, they are doing their best to bring the cheaters back, then i can't stay to play, no matter how good the game is.]
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Re: Poll Results

Post by seaborgium on Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:43 pm

Casshern - I can agree, rule breakers should be punished. I know that there were 4 people punished. I know 3 of them did there time and waited. the last well I am sure you can read above. TBH I don't know what admin should do with this one.

Nigatsu_Aka - Well I would think you are telling the truth, I know you still play GateWars, which has cheaters that went unpunished. You are semi right about the bring the cheaters back. I for one lost a hella lot more then I gained. I don't know what the others gained. I do know that I have found another bug with in the game and admin is trying to fix it, waiting on a updated to be in place. Admin did take action, there was only 1 person who that alliance fought to bring back. The others were going to be allowed to play... So I not sure how much your argument holds.

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Re: Poll Results

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