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Looking for ideas on race features

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Kenzu
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Post by Admin Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:01 am

So far I got
Daning:
- Less ST turns used for attacking
- Less upkeep for attack weapons (~50%)
- Cheaper Attack weapons/units

Kyora:
- Chance to detect the originator of a sab/assassination mission even if it was successful
- Cheaper spies/assassins

Miraya:
- Less upkeep for defense weapons (~25-33%)
- Cheaper Defense weapons/units

Hualu:
- No bank fees


Ideas must be easy to implement, nothing overly complicated (if your suggestion would require more than 1-2 IF-conditions then it's classified as complicated)
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Post by Alex Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:52 am

In my opinion No bank fees and Less ST usage win out over the others by a LONG margin.
In my opinion to have the other thing start to even be considered by me as equal to these things they would have to be more like:

ALWAYS detect the originator of a sab/assassination mission even if it was successful.
and
NO upkeep for defense weapons.

Those two examples I have given above in my mind are equal (Kind of) to the two for the other races that you listed.

Also comparing Danning and Miraya:
Danning has both the things Miraya has (Less upkeep, cheaper related units), one of them to a greater extent (Possible double the reduction to upkeep), AND an extra bonus to STs. This seems a bit unbalanced to me.

But I do agree with the concept of having races play a bigger part, and giving them some form of bonus, especially because at the moment, IMO, Hualu already has a 'bonus' where the other three dont.

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Post by Admin Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:57 am

Actually you shouldn't forget that weapon upkeep is a significant amount.

Hence dropping upkeep by 25% on def weapons would mean extra 50-100 mil kuwal per day for some people, even more for some of the largest players.
50-100 mil kuwal saved is equal to banking 2.5 bil kuwal, EACH DAY.

The logic behind defense upkeep lower than attack upkeep would be that someone who has a strike ALSO needs to have a defense. That def will generally be as high or even higher than the strike.
Lower % for defense is simply explained that defenses are in general higher than strikes, so lower % equals same saving in upkeep
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Post by Alex Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:04 am

A quote is in the spoiler:
Spoiler:

Yes you have a good point there, one I entirely agree with, but I still think Danning having an extra bonus is unbalanced. Don't know if in practice it would be, but on the surface that is how it seems to me.
Also I can't think of any bonus you could give to Miraya to even it up, AND I still think reducing STs (I assume from 2->1 per 10/10 farm hit?) is up there with no bank fees as WAY better then the other two.

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Post by Admin Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:11 am

hence this topic
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Post by Alex Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:16 am

Hmm sorry but in my first post I did say that no upkeep might even it out a bit more (I also offered a suggestion for Kyora) so I was wrong when I said "Also I can't think of any bonus you could give to Miraya to even it up" in my second post, although that suggestion just brings it a little closer, not sure how close, to how I percive the ST/Bank fee bonuses.

Your thoughts (If any) on my two suggestons?
Spoiler:

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Post by kingkongfan1 Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:02 pm

Admin wrote:So far I got
Daning:
- Less ST turns used for attacking
- Less upkeep for attack weapons (~50%)
- Cheaper Attack weapons/units

Kyora:
- Chance to detect the originator of a sab/assassination mission even if it was successful
- Cheaper spies/assassins

Miraya:
- Less upkeep for defense weapons (~25-33%)
- Cheaper Defense weapons/units

Hualu:
- No bank fees


Ideas must be easy to implement, nothing overly complicated (if your suggestion would require more than 1-2 IF-conditions then it's classified as complicated)

I like your Idea here very much, needs a few more heads to perfect, but I would put this out for consideration...
The no banking fees bonus that the Hualu have seems to set wrong with a lot of players. so I suggest that the Hualu have the same bank fees that the others have, in return the Hualu PBP Income could look something like this: .25% or .50% or whatever is deemed fair. Just an idea to make all happy. Or if you don't like that Idea, then try this, Give the Hualu the bank fees but make the research costs lower, there are my thoughts on this, I don't have an issue with what you have put forth so far, & am looking forward to what other players suggest...
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Post by Disco_Vader Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:28 pm

I like this topic Smile

It helps me to look at this by examining how each characteristic plays across all races as a best, better, good -- or as I put in the table below, advantage, neutral, disadvantage (just semantics). I lifted the first several from reset.php. The rest are from this thread.

FeatureAdvantageNeutralDisadvantage
Bank FeesHualuKyora, Miraya, Daning
Weapon AdvancementsDaning, MirayaHualuKyora
Spy Skill AdvancementsKyoraHualuDaning, Miraya
Assassin Skill AdvancementsKyoraHualuDaning, Miraya
Basic Covert TechnologiesKyoraHualuDaning, Miraya
Basic Defense TechnologiesMirayaHualuKyora, Daning
Basic Attack TechnologiesDaningHualuKyora, Miraya
Basic Assassin TechnologiesKyoraHualuDaning, Miraya
Attack PBP MaximumDaningHualuKyora, Miraya
Defense PBP MaximumMirayaHualuDaning, Kyora
Covert PBP MaximumKyoraHualuDaning, Miraya
ST turns used for attackingDaningHualu, Kyora, Miraya
Upkeep for attack weaponsDaningHualu, Kyora, Miraya
Cheaper Attack weapons/unitsDaningHualu, Kyora, Miraya
Detect the originator of a sab/ass mission even if successfulKyoraHualu, Daning, Miraya
Cheaper spies/assassinsKyoraHualu, Daning, Miraya
Upkeep for defense weaponsMirayaHualu, Daning, Kyora
Cheaper Defense weapons/unitsMirayaHualu, Daning, Kyora
Realm Alert level cost/turnKyoraDaning, MirayaHualu
Work Conditions motivation costDaning, MirayaKyoraHualu
Trade Exchange RatesHualuDaning, MirayaKyora

The extra ones I added (Realm Alert, Work Conditions, Exchange Rates) I picked to either give Hualu something to have an advantage or disadvange at -- instead of always being in the middle. Here's my reasoning:
* Hualu has a lot going on. They are "balanced" which means as a race they are good at everything, but not the best at anything (per se). This can translate to efficiency tradeoffs. Hence extra costs for maintaining realm alert and elevated work conditions.
* Kyora gets the Realm Alert advantage because they are strong in this area to being with.
* Daning and Miraya are strongest at elevated work conditions because their non-military find it easy to get behind the military's well publicized, easy to understand, consistent military stances/endeavors. "Happily content one-track minds."
* Hualu get an exchange rate advantage because since they are well balanced, their relations with the spectrum of folks they need to interact with to conduct trade are overall the best. So, they overall get the best rates (at least the most consistently).
* Kyora get the exchange rate disadvantage because, well, they are shady characters.
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Post by Admin Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:22 pm

nah let's stick to either a race getting a bonus somewhere or not. If there's bonuses in some areas but penalties in others then it makes it too complicated for a new player to chose correctly Very Happy
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Post by Disco_Vader Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:59 pm

In other contexts you might choose strong, but with a penalty that you're going to be slow. Or maybe you can attack many times but with a penalty to accuracy. Anyhow, I'll defer to your preference, Admin Smile.
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Post by Disco_Vader Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:11 pm

Meanwhile, discarding my table above, I have a couple of race feature suggestions (already mentioned in the table above). Simplifying to "just a bonus":
* Kyora: decreased income penalty per turn for Realm Alert
* Daning,Miraya: overtime Work Conditions costs less motivation, relaxed recharges motivation faster
* Hualu: Trade Exchange Rate penalties decreased
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Post by Nomad Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:08 am

Disco_Vader wrote:Meanwhile, discarding my table above, I have a couple of race feature suggestions (already mentioned in the table above). Simplifying to "just a bonus":
* Kyora: decreased income penalty per turn for Realm Alert
* Daning,Miraya: overtime Work Conditions costs less motivation, relaxed recharges motivation faster
* Hualu: Trade Exchange Rate penalties decreased

I like these
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Post by Lord Ishurue Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:48 am

Cheaper units is only good for miraya or daning . Spy and assassin training is very cheap . The UU value is what is expensive .

so for race bonuses , why not make a birth sign instead . Most likely if u give a race a bonus then every1 will have to decide if their current account set up is worth it .


i posted this somewhere before . 12 birth signs , under 4 different categories , with 3 types .

Using Zodiac sign names for easy example .

4 types of signs
Battle
Secret
Prosperity
Unique

Scorpio - Secret + 4% on Covert , + 4% on Assassin . u lose 50% less spies on sabotage and assassination missions
Cancer - Secret - Realm alert costs 20% less . 50% less STs used for Sabotage and assassinations
Pisces - Secret - + 2% on covert , + 2% on assassin . u lose 10% less spies and assassins on sabotage and assassinations . Pisces can Sabotage ATs .

Leo - Battle Your troops always fight at 100 - 110% power . + 4% on strike and defense
Sagitarius - Battle When someone invades a Sagitarius it costs them 40 STs 40ATs .
Aries - Battle + 20% on strike and defense - 40% covert

Capricorn Prosperity + 10% on income + 10% on UP
Taurus Prosperity + 10% on AE + 2% on UP( if your AE becomes higher then 100% then u produce more income )
Virgo Prosperity + 1% on all stats . + 1% on AE , income , and UP .

Libra unique + 4% on defense . Building cost 20% cheaper and u can build 100 per turn .
Aquarius unique can have 12 officers . + 4% on income . Aquarius PPT lasts 50% longer
Gemini unique . Gemini's can copy a different birth signs abilities but at 50% less effectiveness . But they can only change once every 24 hours .
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Post by Disco_Vader Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:16 am

I notice that to a meaningful extent these ideas blend Miraya and Daning -- if not explicitly, then by the characteristics for the two being the same except for flipping the defense/attack bit. This may not be popular, but I wonder if it's worth considering merging those two races -- either reducing to 3 -- or possibly adding a different fourth. Ishurue's idea seems to lend itself to the latter: Secret == Kyora, Battle == Danaya (Miraya/Daning), Prosperity == Hualu (sorta), and Unique == a new race.
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Post by Kingofshinobis1 Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:19 am

Ishurue wrote:Cheaper units is only good for miraya or daning . Spy and assassin training is very cheap . The UU value is what is expensive .

so for race bonuses , why not make a birth sign instead . Most likely if u give a race a bonus then every1 will have to decide if their current account set up is worth it .


i posted this somewhere before . 12 birth signs , under 4 different categories , with 3 types .

Using Zodiac sign names for easy example .

4 types of signs
Battle
Secret
Prosperity
Unique

Scorpio - Secret + 4% on Covert , + 4% on Assassin . u lose 50% less spies on sabotage and assassination missions
Cancer - Secret - Realm alert costs 20% less . 50% less STs used for Sabotage and assassinations
Pisces - Secret - + 2% on covert , + 2% on assassin . u lose 10% less spies and assassins on sabotage and assassinations . Pisces can Sabotage ATs .

Leo - Battle Your troops always fight at 100 - 110% power . + 4% on strike and defense
Sagitarius - Battle When someone invades a Sagitarius it costs them 40 STs 40ATs .
Aries - Battle + 20% on strike and defense - 40% covert

Capricorn Prosperity + 10% on income + 10% on UP
Taurus Prosperity + 10% on AE + 2% on UP( if your AE becomes higher then 100% then u produce more income )
Virgo Prosperity + 1% on all stats . + 1% on AE , income , and UP .

Libra unique + 4% on defense . Building cost 20% cheaper and u can build 100 per turn .
Aquarius unique can have 12 officers . + 4% on income . Aquarius PPT lasts 50% longer
Gemini unique . Gemini's can copy a different birth signs abilities but at 50% less effectiveness . But they can only change once every 24 hours .


I really, really like this idea. The bonuses need to be tweaked a little bit and it may be a little complicated to add, but this could add a very nice and unique aspect to the game. One of the best ideas yet IMO.

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Post by rflash Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:35 pm

Less upkeep in weapons for Daning / Miraya is ok and can be implemented fast and easy.

However, keep in mind that a big player (let's say 250-300k weapons) pays 12-15 mil / turn in upkeep or let's say 600-700 mil / day. The income of a big player is 4-7 bil / day ... 0.125% of that is 5-9 mil.

So some kind of balance should be decided, because 50% less upkeep is the equivalent of alot of PBP invested in income.

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Post by Osyndicate Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:46 am

Ishurue wrote:Cheaper units is only good for miraya or daning . Spy and assassin training is very cheap . The UU value is what is expensive .

so for race bonuses , why not make a birth sign instead . Most likely if u give a race a bonus then every1 will have to decide if their current account set up is worth it .


i posted this somewhere before . 12 birth signs , under 4 different categories , with 3 types .

Using Zodiac sign names for easy example .

4 types of signs
Battle
Secret
Prosperity
Unique

Scorpio - Secret + 4% on Covert , + 4% on Assassin . u lose 50% less spies on sabotage and assassination missions
Cancer - Secret - Realm alert costs 20% less . 50% less STs used for Sabotage and assassinations
Pisces - Secret - + 2% on covert , + 2% on assassin . u lose 10% less spies and assassins on sabotage and assassinations . Pisces can Sabotage ATs .

Leo - Battle Your troops always fight at 100 - 110% power . + 4% on strike and defense
Sagitarius - Battle When someone invades a Sagitarius it costs them 40 STs 40ATs .
Aries - Battle + 20% on strike and defense - 40% covert

Capricorn Prosperity + 10% on income + 10% on UP
Taurus Prosperity + 10% on AE + 2% on UP( if your AE becomes higher then 100% then u produce more income )
Virgo Prosperity + 1% on all stats . + 1% on AE , income , and UP .

Libra unique + 4% on defense . Building cost 20% cheaper and u can build 100 per turn .
Aquarius unique can have 12 officers . + 4% on income . Aquarius PPT lasts 50% longer
Gemini unique . Gemini's can copy a different birth signs abilities but at 50% less effectiveness . But they can only change once every 24 hours .


My only problem is with Aries, I am one in RL, and I am pretty sneaky =P.


Great Idea, but maybe a bit much for a game with so many basic-game-knowledge players lulz.
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Post by Miglow Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:06 am

I've thought it would be neat for the Miraya and Daning to have race specific weapons. So I like the idea for them to have cheaper weapons for their focus.

There could be unique units for each race. I'm sure there are quite a few ideas that could work. Here's what I came up with:

Daning Warriors. The elite fighting forces of the warrior race.
cost 200,000 kw. - Attack unit with a normal death rate but 3x as strong.

Miraya Defenders. Specially trained and equipped with strong armor.
cost 200,000 kw. - Defence unit with death rate half that of supers, but have normal power.

Kyora Spec-Ops - Known for their intense training and loyalty
cost 200,000 kw. Count as both covert and assassin units. First to be lost with any mission where either spies or assassins would be lost.

Hualu Militia - Civilians trained as a last defense.
cost 10,000. 50 income per turn. Count as initial losses for miners and workers in a mission against production. (alternative: 5000 cost, 25 income)

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Post by Nomad Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:46 am

Not a bad idea Mig.
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Post by kingkongfan1 Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:28 pm

Miglow wrote:I've thought it would be neat for the Miraya and Daning to have race specific weapons. So I like the idea for them to have cheaper weapons for their focus.

There could be unique units for each race. I'm sure there are quite a few ideas that could work. Here's what I came up with:

Daning Warriors. The elite fighting forces of the warrior race.
cost 200,000 kw. - Attack unit with a normal death rate but 3x as strong.

Miraya Defenders. Specially trained and equipped with strong armor.
cost 200,000 kw. - Defence unit with death rate half that of supers, but have normal power.

Kyora Spec-Ops - Known for their intense training and loyalty
cost 200,000 kw. Count as both covert and assassin units. First to be lost with any mission where either spies or assassins would be lost.

Hualu Militia - Civilians trained as a last defense.
cost 10,000. 50 income per turn. Count as initial losses for miners and workers in a mission against production. (alternative: 5000 cost, 25 income)

Kong say Miglow have good thinking... king
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Post by Kenzu Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:37 am

I recommend not to make any updates on race features until more pressing updates are completed.
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Post by Nomad Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:05 am

what do you define as more pressing?

I cant say I disagree with the jest, I just want to know what is considered more important.
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Post by seaborgium Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:10 am

How about whats already in the game, squads, other then the Construction Yard Level 1 items. Lets get back to the airforce talks.

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Post by Miglow Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:13 pm

To be fair the ideas that me and ishurue put out there are probably more complicated than what this thread was asking for. I tried keeping the units simple but maybe got carried away with the Hualu and Kiraya units because they were harder to come up with.

There is a bit of a pressing issue over balancing all four races to be more equally powerful/desireable. Which is just as important as any other updates out there waiting to be finished.

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Post by Lord Ishurue Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:53 am



If u pick a race like miraya Kyora or Danning . then your bonus points all should be in their stat .

if u want balance pick huala.

i would say specialized races can put 90 or 100% of their bonus points in their race's stat ( defense for miraya etc ) and 20% in other stats .

tech discounts . huala 10% on all techs. specialized races 30% on their tech .

when u hit 200% techs the price doubles. ( to go from 199% to 200% covert for kyora was ~ 7.8 bil ish. to go from 200% to 201% cost 16.1bil ish )
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