BaseO bug.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Universe on Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:08 am

Sweetheart, dear Vesper, admin has the info on who used that bug for how long, how many times, etcetera.. it's his system. He knows.
I can't speak for admin, but I can say that I have told him before, that I would accept any punishment he sees as proportionate to the crime.

It makes sense in the same way you could punish two thieves differently. One steals a chocolate bar, the other a car. Same crime, different sentence.
Admin is the judge, and I will abide by his judgement whatever his decision. What else can I do? Should I make a thread, complaining about it, calling admin immature, unprofessional, nepotistic based on some facts, a lot of conjecture and a generous helping of conspiracy thinking? No.. like that would help my case.. Rolling Eyes


Last edited by Universe on Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grammatical errors corrected.)
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by seaborgium on Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:50 am

well admin says hes is tracking it for 3 weeks...
So anything before then wouldn't have been seen.

The only difference that I can see in that Ioz and myself were unbanned was the amount of times used. I could comment on Vespers bc admin said how many times in the last 3 weeks. He did not say how many Damgood used it.

I had more but its almost 5am and I am still sleepy so I will try to post more once I am awake more.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Space2050 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:36 am

In my opinion: Permanent bans should be reserved for Hackers, extreme exploiters, and repeat offenders.

Extreme exploiters would be those who reap some benefit from the usage of bugs or exploitations of the system, and continue to exploit the system without making attempts to fix the problem.

If Vesper and damgood truly exploited the system to an extent so far beyond the others, at least be sure the bug can no longer be exploited, then if these are after a few different offenses, consider the option of account resets for them or uu/tech lvl decreases. That would give them the ability to continue playing the game and attempt to fix their mistakes. By permanently banning them, they will never get the chance to fix their mistakes and perhaps the next bug you failed to notice (that they end up noticing), won't be caught.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Hai-Shulud on Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:05 am

Well i think perm-banning is just not fair in this particular case. If admin knew about it then he should have said something.

I have been using the "bug" on the test server quite a lot. Admin in his great wisdom didnt give us unlimited Cov Turns on the test so saving them for sabbing was quite important. Now shall i expect to be banned? For using it on test server?

I know for a fact that Vesper has gained no real advantage from this along with anyone else who used it. We only used it for 2 things - Picking targets to randomly mass people on test server and comparing accounts on the main (ie top 10 strikes, top 10 covert, top 10 income ect, so we could compare ourselves to the top ranks of the server. Ironicly most people in those lists area already in TIE)

Everything we did just conserved covert turns and nothing else. Is this such a huge advantage - well if we were at war than yes and if we had gone on a killing spree then again probably yes. Now if we are going to be banned/punished so severely for the only thing we can be accused of which is not reporting the bug than i guess there is something we are missing here...
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Universe on Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:19 am

((Semi-Off Topic: For the record; I was punished. I only state this so that all know admin is not being unfair, but in fact punishes those who used it proportionately.))
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by buhcoreTheGreat on Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:21 am

Vesper this made me laugh
Vesper wrote:I used it for stats mostly to gather defense and covert action. It was more a way to just save covert turns. Admin believes i only used it to see if people were on realm alert or not. That would be useless since no logical person would use realm alert as the decrease to income makes it not worth it. If your paranoid about being hit you use protection, not realm alert.

Your MOTD is funny: if your Sabbed dont cry to Admin, go on critical, or train more spies
with other words: go on critical and suicide, i will know it in anyway,

just before you got banned you sabbed me, the funny thing is the message you sent me after sabs: O and even with you on crit. Most people can still go through your AA and kill your spies


Last edited by buhcoreTheGreat on Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:41 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Sandwalker on Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:24 am

Universe wrote:((Semi-Off Topic: For the record; I was punished. I only state this so that all know admin is not being unfair, but in fact punishes those who used it proportionately.))

you're enjoying this too much, *naughty naughty* Smile. You can't end up punished overall.

@buhcore: You built your account by rolling dice I suppose. It wouldn't require the baseO bug to notice that or rape your spies.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Vesper on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:07 pm

buhcoreTheGreat wrote:
Your MOTD is funny: if your Sabbed dont cry to Admin, go on critical, or train more spies
with other words: go on critical and suicide, i will know it in anyway,

just before you got banned you sabbed me, the funny thing is the message you sent me after sabs: O and even with you on crit. Most people can still go through your AA and kill your spies

When I assassinated your spies I hit you until I ran out of covert turns. Then you message me and tell me to continue. Is it supposed to be a big secret that you go on crit after being assassinated when you tell the person that did it to hit you again?

There is noway to know of when you will be sabbed. If your online when you get hit lucky you but chances are that with how semi-active the server is you will not be only when you are targeted. And there is a very very slim chance that anybody on the server sits with their account on critical 24/7 waiting for somebody to mess up hitting them. It takes about 20 seconds to do 20 sabs so you need to have some pretty damn quick reactions if you are online see the hit then manage to go hit crit all before the person is done sabbing you.
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Vesper on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:15 pm

Universe wrote:
It makes sense in the same way you could punish two thieves differently. One steals a chocolate bar, the other a car. Same crime, different sentence.

Uni, you used it to track protection times. AND shared the results with everyone publically. That takes exploit to a whole new level. Nobody else used it to gain any edge or anything regarding protection times except you. So in this case you are the one stealing the car?

O i still have your forum PM saying you want to keep the bug a secret back on OOO january 23rd... That was a month ago. You didnt report the bug until when exactly? 3 weeks? and OMG a post on January 2nd saying
Universe wrote:
He's just almost 200minutes into a new 48h PPT, SA. I don't see him breaking that with the state he's in now.
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Universe on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:49 pm

*grin* Marvellous, what a surprising direct attack. Laughing And silly too..
Yes, I did talk about the PPT's end back then. Did I profit from that? Nope.. admin can see that I made no profitable hits in that timespan. Did others? How would I know what others do with information I provide? Besides, I voiced my opposition to using it, and admin can confirm I haven't extensively used the bug since then. *grin* Just as he knows when I filed my report, and when the number of users increased exponentially.

Admin knows all this already, Ves. Smile
So much for being a shocking revelation. Did I spoil your deflection yet? Once again you try to have a scapegoat in me.. once again, it will only serve to ease your own conscience. What an unoriginal trick, darling.. you used this strategy what, two weeks ago? Step up your game, or step out.

Should I go on to tell about your lovely uploader/dataminer? No.. I'll leave that to the realm of TIE's plenty abusive mysteries.. Or not. Who knows. Maybe I'll use it whenever I need a scapegoat. I hear it calms the nerves. Razz
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by buhcoreTheGreat on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Vesper wrote:
buhcoreTheGreat wrote:
Your MOTD is funny: if your Sabbed dont cry to Admin, go on critical, or train more spies
with other words: go on critical and suicide, i will know it in anyway,

just before you got banned you sabbed me, the funny thing is the message you sent me after sabs: O and even with you on crit. Most people can still go through your AA and kill your spies

When I assassinated your spies I hit you until I ran out of covert turns. Then you message me and tell me to continue. Is it supposed to be a big secret that you go on crit after being assassinated when you tell the person that did it to hit you again?

There is noway to know of when you will be sabbed. If your online when you get hit lucky you but chances are that with how semi-active the server is you will not be only when you are targeted. And there is a very very slim chance that anybody on the server sits with their account on critical 24/7 waiting for somebody to mess up hitting them. It takes about 20 seconds to do 20 sabs so you need to have some pretty damn quick reactions if you are online see the hit then manage to go hit crit all before the person is done sabbing you.

I was online when you sabbed me and the first thing i did was to put on critical, logically. Later i sent you a message saying "keep going" as you said, of course i had no clue who did it but i guess my intuition was right, however that's not the case. The fact is that you were cheating and you admited, admin decides what punishment you deserve and i don't belive your public whining will do any good.
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Nigatsu_Aka on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:30 pm

Hey admin,

Is there any posiblity that by using a particularity of this bug they could have checked and find out secret alliances and the members of the secret alliances? Because from what i can see, this bug could have been used that way... check out Vesper's first post:

When test server was released I accidentally stumbled upon a bug that allows alliance advisers to see the stats of anybody in an alliance. Stats that any alliance adviser can see in their own alliance. Such as the power of each stat, rank of each stat, attack turns, covert turns, stuff like that.
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Sandwalker on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:37 pm

Nigatsu_Aka wrote:Hey admin,

Is there any posiblity that by using a particularity of this bug they could have checked and find out secret alliances and the members of the secret alliances? Because from what i can see, this bug could have been used that way... check out Vesper's first post:

partially.

From what I understand, you can only use that to check the stats of members of an alliance. So if someone appears to not be a member of an alliance but you can see their stats with the baseO thing, they're obviously members of a secret alliance. Though I don't think there's any way to tell if someone is a member of a specific secret alliance.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:52 pm

What sand said.
It was possible to say if someone was part of A secret alliance, but it was not possible to assign that player to a particular alliance

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by seaborgium on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:03 pm

Universe wrote:Should I go on to tell about your lovely uploader/dataminer?
Are you referring to my spy op combiner/database? While I was making it many had access to it. I even told people about it. I don't hide the fact that I have tools that I have made. Currently the my site is set up for just TIE, You can ask anyone in TIE that has talked about it. I want to make it open to all. There will still be parts that only TIE can use, mainly due to the information that is in them. If someone would like to see the site, they can ask and I can show them what it does and go over all parts of the site. If admin would like to see the more advanced parts I can show him that information. There is only 1 person who has *all* access and that is myself. I will also add, the only way to add data to my site is by using the html source code of the page you are looking at. As I said currently its only set up for TIE, I have a few parts I was still working on. Once they are done, I am going to open it up to everyone.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by seaborgium on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:40 pm

I got a PM saying that it wasn't the spy op item that was being referring to. It was the fact that I made a way to upload the baseO, Yes there is one, no it was not made for this it was more for the alliance. I also have a way to upload someones news logs, it is for a program we have in TIE. I have a way to upload allainceeco and alliancemil pages also. Then there is a page that using the info from the allianceeco it gives us the info from the database on our memebers in tie so that we can see peoples accounts. As I said, I have no trouble showing that to the admin. I will not show anyone else, as it gives more info then anyone needs to see about TIE, admin can already see that data anyways.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by FarleShadow on Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:30 pm

Wow This certainly seems like abit of a vendetta, I always knew Kenzu had Admins ear after I got a warning for using a rather minor ref to Kenzu's intelligence, but a permaban after a Known bug was abused (Rather than just warning the crap out of those who used it once not to do it again) seems alot like an overreaction.

Edit: Imo Vesper deserves a cut, but a permaban is way over the top.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Vesper on Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:20 pm

O banning two people and not banning the others doesnt seem like an overreaction at all. Uro is just being stubborn and refuses to listen to anybody. He has no reason to keep me banned and not the others besides I used it more frequently. When that more frequent term is used it means I used it 374times while others used it 100+ times themselves. Frequency of use should not matter, admin admitted that there is no way of telling what people checked with the baseO thing but because he thinks I used it mainly for realm alert while I sabbed he bans me and not the others. That same accusation can be presented on any other person.

Here is a question if this is a public tribunal where everyone is discussing it then why would admin say:
Admin wrote:I do things my way, whoever is not happy with me doing my job can delete their account and leave this game. I will not be pushed into a corner. If someone gives me feedback that is sound and logical then I have never had an issue admitting fault and correcting my mistakes, however such an argument is yet to come.
Those who pm'ed me asking questions, i've replied to all, whatever i've written in those pm's everyone is welcome to share on this topic you have my official permission, I stand by each and every word.

Admin used to view opinions and let others share their input and he would actually pay some attention. So why is he ignoring everybody here? He says he wants "sound and logical" information. So what has he been ready the first 2 pages? Plenty of people have presented a reason why the punishment should be lifted from an unbanning to something like some UU taken like all the others involved.
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by ian on Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:46 pm

I ll be leaving Aderan War's shortly and going to play Astro Empires on the new Helion Server. Anyone else who wishes to do the same is more than welcome to do so.

I have no interest in playing a game where the admin willingly and knowingly places a trap for a minor bug, then issues differing punishments to different people who have committed the same basic offence, with the punishment far exceeding other previous punishments given out for multing, exploiting previous bugs or creating auto-scripts etc...

It just doesn't seem fair - which it isn't.

@ Kenzu - there is no way in hell i ll be creating that topic advertising Aderan War's on the sci-fi site now like we discussed. For a site which has literally 100,000's of visitors a day with 1000's online every second i d have been prepared to bet good money Aderan War's could have grown massively - it was that sci-fi site which originally recruited so many players to play Stargate Wars and then The Ancient wars (myself being one of them). I ll be keeping an eye out for any topics relating to AW on there as well, and be more than happy to share my opinion of the game now i ve seen admins true conduct.
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:23 pm

ian wrote:I have no interest in playing a game where the admin willingly and knowingly places a trap for a minor bug
If i dont add a log for such a bug when it's discovered, I have no way of knowing who knew about it and abused it, if you know a better system then you're welcome to suggest one
Plus considering the implications, seeing someone's stats, membership in a secret alliance, looking at attack, sabotage and assassination logs...


ian wrote:then issues differing punishments to different people who have committed the same basic offence, with the punishment far exceeding other previous punishments given out for multing, exploiting previous bugs or creating auto-scripts etc...

It just doesn't seem fair - which it isn't.
I'll tell you what's fair, ioz and seaborgium actually apologizing for using it and them not actually using it to gain a practical advantage.

So far vesper has not said a single word about being truly sorry about using it. All he did was bitch about it and complain how his punishment wasn't fair.
Not a single time did he make me an offer how I should punish him instead of a permaban.
Not a single time did he say he's sorry to those people who's stats he looked upon.
Instead he deems that his use of check on the realm alert on his targets AND the checking of their covert logs after the sabs to make sure his name has remain hidden was still ok and not a biggie anyway.

I judge not just the offence, but also the attitude. Vespers attitude of not even so much as show that he wants to repent made it very clear what he wanted me to do, instead he kept trying to make up excuses why I'm biased and/or he's not as guilty as I make it appear

Would I be willing to unban him if he made a true and honest apology and try to make amends after I make this post? Almost certainly.
Will he do it? I have my serious doubts.

Have I been very lenient about the offenses in the past? Yes I have, I can't remember saying that I'll always follow the same procedure.
Does this case one blow all of them away in terms of people knowing about it? Most definitely.
Do I have a major issue with vespers attitude of "there's so many involved, I didn't think you'd ban us all"? Hell yes
Idiocy will not protect anyone from punishment


You keep secrets, you get burnt. If I had not found about this, would you have kept using it until the sun blows up?
Would even a single one of you come forward he had used it so they could accept their punishment if I had simply fixed it?


Last edited by Admin on Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Kingofshinobis1 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:44 pm

Admin wrote:I'll tell you what's fair, ioz and seaborgium actually apologizing for using it and them not actually using it to gain a practical advantage.

So far vesper has not said a single word about being truly sorry about using it. All he did was bitch about it and complain how his punishment wasn't fair.
Not a single time did he make me an offer how I should punish him instead of a permaban.
Not a single time did he say he's sorry to those people who's stats he looked upon.
Instead he deems that his use of check on the realm alert on his targets AND the checking of their covert logs after the sabs to make sure his name has remain hidden was still ok and not a biggie anyway.

I judge not just the offence, but also the attitude. Vespers attitude of not even so much as show that he wants to repent made it very clear what he wanted me to do, instead he kept trying to make up excuses why I'm biased and/or he's not as guilty as I make it appear.

Would I be willing to unban him if he made a true and honest apology and try to make amends after I make this post? Almost certainly.
Will he do it? I have my serious doubts.
Idiocy will not protect anyone from punishment

I agree. This would've all been over with if Vepser would've sincerely apologized for using/abusing the bug. Would've, should've, could've I suppose. As for Ian leaving, I am sorry to hear that but if you don't want to be here, there is no need to have you here Wink. Take care.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by damgood on Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:59 pm

Ishurue wrote:why are Damgood & Vesper still banned .

it does not seem fair to keep them banned when others are un banned .

I've been really busy these days and only today I've had time to talk with admin.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by retro22 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:59 pm

I still stand by the fact that it is YOUR fault for not fixing it. You want to catch people fine. but the problem with that method in this case is that you can't tell if they are using it for good or evil or learning how it works to report it. Also, as for said gains; the only one you could possibly monitor is hitting after protection. Even if someone were to look at a base0 on someone it wouldn't change anything. The same thing would have happened. They would have found out the information one way or another. This is why anyone it got used on would have no course to be annoyed. Either their account is set up to take a beating or it isn't. POINT BLANK. Permanent Banning should only be a result of using malicious code, repeatedly using an income related bug, or harassment. Any other MINOR bug(like this one) should be dealt with in a temp ban. Also, why do you expect someone to apologize when they didn't feel they were doing anything wrong(since admin knew about it and didn't do anything to denounce using it)?

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by damgood on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:04 pm

retro22 wrote:I still stand by the fact that it is YOUR fault for not fixing it. You want to catch people fine. but the problem with that method in this case is that you can't tell if they are using it for good or evil or learning how it works to report it. ?

Well it was obvious it was a bug but we just decided to use it and not report it. It's human nature .

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:09 pm

retro22 wrote:I still stand by the fact that it is YOUR fault for not fixing it. You want to catch people fine. but the problem with that method in this case is that you can't tell if they are using it for good or evil or learning how it works to report it.
It is 100% clear it was not learning how it works so that they could report it, they had 3 weeks for that, you learn how it works for 5 maybe 10 minutes tops.

Plus if I see in the logs the following
Check base page 10 people => 1 minute later sabotage one of said targets => 1 minute later check intellog
rinse and repeat

It is pretty obvious that this was not accidental "learning how it works"
And I can tell they are using it for evil
Especially if I see that pattern repeat itself over and over again

However you're welcome to explain to me how that can be interpreted as "not knowing with absolute certainty" what that person was doing.
Maybe I'm really missing something and I'm just interpreting things incorrectly

retro22 wrote:Also, why do you expect someone to apologize when they didn't feel they were doing anything wrong(since admin knew about it and didn't do anything to denounce using it)?
None of them asked me about it, if people from other alliances are unclear about what they can do they come to me and ask me.
Why the hell should I give anyone the benefit of the doubt if all they had to do, to clear up all issues, was something anyone else with half a brain does regularly, catch me on msn, send me a pm or a mail.
it obviously was a bug because it allowed something that should not be possible and they knew it
I dont see your argument how someone can feel they weren't doing anything wrong if they got told it was a bug, and yes they all knew too well

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2) If I ask stupid questions it's only because sometimes people aren't smart enough to ask these themselves.
3) Being condescending to some people helps me keep my sanity when I am forced to interact with them.

I hate PR, will never engage in it and will rain destruction on all who refuse to use their brains to think before they speak.
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Re: BaseO bug.

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