BaseO bug.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:10 am

Vesper wrote:You see above that i mentioned opportune time. I recently have been sabbing the admins brother, Kenzu, and then admin announces a nerf to covert power in the personal bonus.
I must have missed the thread where i'm announcing a nerf to covert power
please direct me to such a change that targets exclusively covert bonus, cos i can only think of a change that affects all bonuses.

Other than that, that's vespers side of story and if anyone is interested in mine then I will tell it if someone asks for it.
Difference between him and me is that he can make claims and statements without any worry that they be fully correct by simply saying, "I didn't know that" or "my bad" without further consequences.
So he may want chose to increase the level of clarity of his post by editing it for the sake of this topic.


Last edited by Admin on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Vesper on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:32 am

http://aderanwars.forumotion.com/test-server-f29/slight-addon-to-race-specifics-t1350.htm

obviously if you read the thread you will see how admin clearly is against specialized play. Covert has the highest advantage when somebody specializes in it. So naturally covert personal bonus will be the heaviest impacted by this. A striker will lose 9% of their strike if they were daning. A covert person will lose 18% if kyora. Obviously these updates will nerf covert people much more then a striker or any other stat.
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by seaborgium on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:57 am

I will post on this...
I was one who used the bug. I know that I did not use it as Vesper pointed out. I used it more to look at stats, same as you could if ya spied. As admin and I were talking about this, then later he and Ian were talking. He was thinking of making this public with all the names of people who used it.

I know of 9 people. I will let them come forward if they so chose. I am currently banned. Yes what I did was wrong. I have also offered admin a way for me to continue playing, as he offered a way for me to play.

He also talked about looking at some logs, I don't know what he was looking at other then looking to see if people used it to get an advantage. I know I didn't use it to go looking for kuwal/UU. I do know that I know some UU targets were posted on our forum. I did use it to see if the UU was still there. Then I went and got the UU.

My offer to admin was as follows.
for him to take 30% of my UU on my account
for him to take my SS away for 60 days.
for him to ban me for 14 days.

If he does go and look at the logs, I am sure that he will find that I am giving up more then I had gotten by using the bug. So I ask that others look at what I did, and what I offered admin. Then think about if that is a good punishment. I will also say this, when i said that to admin he asked what would be shown users to tell him of bugs. I said to post it and what my punishment is.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by seaborgium on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:58 am

I would also like to post this too.

Its not just the baseO bug, and of the links can be used that way.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Vesper on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:04 am

I used it for stats mostly to gather defense and covert action. It was more a way to just save covert turns. Admin believes i only used it to see if people were on realm alert or not. That would be useless since no logical person would use realm alert as the decrease to income makes it not worth it. If your paranoid about being hit you use protection, not realm alert.

I also asked admin what I could do to get my account unbanned before I made this public post.

These are the replies

Seth, Vesper says (5:18 PM):
is there anything we can work out in excusing me from using the baseO thing?
Seth, Vesper says (5:19 PM):
being i reported several other bugs and been working to find bugs in the test server for you and that this is my first offense in doing anything wrong?
Martin [Urogard] says (6:01 PM):
I wonder what the people you sabbed would say about you using that baseo thing to check on their realm alert

*Bunch of talk regarding realm alert*

Seth, Vesper says (6:08 PM):
idk what do i do to get unbanned then?
Martin [Urogard] says (6:10 PM):
unbanned? nothing, there was plenty you could have done before
Seth, Vesper says (6:11 PM):
how about you do your public tribunal
Martin [Urogard] says (6:11 PM):
yh right, wanna have a guess at what the people you sabbed will demand?


I am sure that based on reading that I am attempting to be rather civil and peaceful and try for a solution to the current problem. While admin on the otherhand is nothing but hostile and against any form of assistance. So why would he offer a way out for others but when i ask for a way out i get nothing more then attitude and sarcasm? Possibly because of the relation i have with kenzu and admin is showing me no mercy because of what i did to kenzu but the people that haven't hit kenzu get a free pass on this?
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Kingofshinobis1 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:33 am

seaborgium wrote:I will post on this...
My offer to admin was as follows.
for him to take 30% of my UU on my account
for him to take my SS away for 60 days.
for him to ban me for 14 days.

If he does go and look at the logs, I am sure that he will find that I am giving up more then I had gotten by using the bug. So I ask that others look at what I did, and what I offered admin. Then think about if that is a good punishment. I will also say this, when i said that to admin he asked what would be shown users to tell him of bugs. I said to post it and what my punishment is.

I agree with Seaborgium on this one. The ones i highlighted would be the most appropriate punishments. Though free money is always good lol (talking about the SS here) The only reason I don't like the SS one is that it just doesn't seem like its enough IMO. I think instead of the 30% though, maybe 25% would be better? I think that if you did that, they will have learned their lesson. I don't like what they did but banning them permanently would be too severe IMO. If anyone else has a opinion post them here Smile

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by JadeFire on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:40 am

Don't like what was done either but we are talking about active players and active posters here on the forums. We need more players as it is for the game. Is admin can tell what they done with the bug and what they gained by using said bug would be better to deduct for those areas and possibly a temp ban for a period of time but Perm. Ban seems a bit much.. IMO.
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by seaborgium on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:42 am

Thank you admin, i figured it up, he look roughly 43% of my UU.

*reports the other pages*

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Kingofshinobis1 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:54 am

I'm glad to see all this got worked out.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Alex on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:27 am

So is Vesper also going to be unbanned and docked UU?
Also are the other culprits going to be punished?

I hope that the answer to these two questions are 'yes' because otherwise it does not seem fair, one punishment for one person, another for another...

-Alex
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Vesper on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:37 am

I am still perm banned with damgood. It appears as though everybody else was unbanned though.

Definitely appears as though admin is being stubborn on this one. Being everyone else did the exact same thing I did it is seriously unfair to lift the ban on everyone else but keep myself and damgood banned over the bug.

He will most likely argue that I used the bug to check realm alerts while others didnt. But everyone else that used the bug can also be accused of the same thing. Only reason I am still banned is because I sabbed people, including the admins brother.

Admin please if you have another reason for keeping me and damgood banned and nobody else, I am all ears.
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by seaborgium on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:43 am

I think the point with you and damgood was the amount that you did it. Also attacking admin and his brother was not the smartest thing to do.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Lord Ishurue on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:54 am

why are Damgood & Vesper still banned .

it does not seem fair to keep them banned when others are un banned .
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Vesper on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:18 am

I was always the one that would go around gathering stats and things even before the baseO bug was discovered. I liked to see where each person stood on the server. I tracked growth in army size and military months ago. I have excel sheets from way back that recorded peoples growth. When I first took over a squad first thing I did was create an excel template to track their techs, UP, covert/assassin/weapon level, and growth. I then used that template and used it for the top 10 to 15 army sizes on the server long before I had any idea about the baseO thing. I always tracked things which is why I used this more then others. Back when Ishurue and Ian had their race to 1mil growth is when i started to track growth server wide. Ishurue and I used to talk daily on who grew the most and what was the average growth for people.. To keep me banned permanently for keeping track of growths through a bug while others used the bug just for a similar reason but less frequent is silly.
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Kingofshinobis1 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:28 am

I do think it is a little unfair to un-ban one or more people and leave the others banned. The amount of times doesn't really matter here. Its just the fact that it was used. The same punishment should be used for everyone regardless.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Alex on Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:29 am

Kingofshinobis1 wrote:I do think it is a little unfair to un-ban one or more people and leave the others banned. The amount of times doesn't really matter here. Its just the fact that it was used. The same punishment should be used for everyone regardless.

Agreed.

-Alex
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Disco_Vader on Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:38 am

Admin wrote:Other than that, that's vespers side of story and if anyone is interested in mine then I will tell it if someone asks for it.

It seems to me we're at the point in this thread where we'd be interested in your side of the story.... So far it looks like there's pretty consistent sympathy on Vesper's side. What are we missing?
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by retro22 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:24 am

I don't get on very much anymore, so discount or increase what I have to say based on that as you will.
Unless there is some other flagrant disregard of conduct martin it really seems like you're just being immature. If you didn't explicitly say that that link was off limits then it shouldn't even be punishable. ESPECIALLY if you had talked to the banned in question about it and said essentially "yes people use it *shrugs*".
The fact of changing personal bonuses(which I personally couldn't care less about) really is irrelevant at this point. Also, even if they were using it for realm alert that only saves them at MOST 3 attempts and if you're experienced/decent at math 1 attempt.
Basically it boils down to players using what is available to them through lack of explicitness on the admin's part.
Do what you want. you have my thoughts. I wish you well.

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by superkingtsob on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:32 am

UN banning every one but 2 just seems petty to me. With or with out it it wouidl have taken 2 attempts at most to see what was needed for sabing we now how to do the maths

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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Nigatsu_Aka on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:39 am

Anyone who uses bugs to gain advantages in the game should be punished. It seems that this bug helped the ones who did it because it is a specific bug, someone must do specific things to be able to use it, thus they deserve to be punished.

This bug is a severe bug, which nerfed to point of having a good covert. If the people who used this bug a lot to gain things are allowed to be back, then those who have specialised in covert must have some kind of a bonus because their covert was useless.


What you all seem to do in this thread is to argue why should someone who used a severe bug to gain HUGE tactical advantages in the game, be forgiven, thus you also break another specific rule:

3) Trying (and/or manage) to look for loopholes in these rules (either their wording or their "meaning") in any way as to pretend to "walk in the grey area" is not encouraged. There won't be any acts of unreasonable or undeserved punishment from the side of the administration if rules are being attempted to be bent. But if it is deemed in violation of the "spirit of the game" (Which is to keep the game fair and balanced for everyone) actions and measures will be undertaken. In short better stay away two steps aside from the "grey area" instead of one step inside.


"Game fair and balanced to everyone"... oh my how i love this statement and i hope that admin does too. Wink



LATER EDIT:

Vesper wrote:When test server was released I accidentally stumbled upon a bug that allows alliance advisers to see the stats of anybody in an alliance. Stats that any alliance adviser can see in their own alliance. Such as the power of each stat, rank of each stat, attack turns, covert turns, stuff like that.

In case anyone is wondering why some players are permabanned and IMO should stay like that, above is the right explanation.

With using this bug, not only that they could see free stats, but they could see ALL the members and all their stats of the secret alliances.... this is an impossible thing to achieve with normal game mechanics.

If i had any doubt of why some people should be permabanned, now i'm difinately convinced about it.


Last edited by Nigatsu_Aka on Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : see the LATER EDIT part)
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Universe on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:50 am

Nigatsu said it. I won't comment on the how and why of admin arranging his affairs, because I know too little about that, but I feel it's his right to be judge, jury and executioner in this kind of thing. It's what we all agreed on when we registered to play AderanWars. Smile If he decides to ban more people, then that's his right as the owner of this game.



Spoiler:
Vesper wrote: blah blah blah it's all so unfair wah wah wah omg admin is doing his brother favours and is just another person who is intent on making tie look bad wah wah wah
And they call me paranoid. Rolling Eyes (Forgive me if my summary was too short, I believe I got all of your main points though?)
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Alex on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:56 am

Nigatsu_Aka wrote:Anyone who uses bugs to gain advantages in the game should be punished. It seems that this bug helped the ones who did it because it is a specific bug, someone must do specific things to be able to use it, thus they deserve to be punished.

This bug is a severe bug, which nerfed to point of having a good covert. If the people who used this bug a lot to gain things are allowed to be back, then those who have specialised in covert must have some kind of a bonus because their covert was useless.


What you all seem to do in this thread is to argue why should someone who used a severe bug to gain HUGE tactical advantages in the game, be forgiven, thus you also break another specific rule:

3) Trying (and/or manage) to look for loopholes in these rules (either their wording or their "meaning") in any way as to pretend to "walk in the grey area" is not encouraged. There won't be any acts of unreasonable or undeserved punishment from the side of the administration if rules are being attempted to be bent. But if it is deemed in violation of the "spirit of the game" (Which is to keep the game fair and balanced for everyone) actions and measures will be undertaken. In short better stay away two steps aside from the "grey area" instead of one step inside.


"Game fair and balanced to everyone"... oh my how i love this statement and i hope that admin does too. Wink

I agree with your post but there should be consistency in the punishment. One player got a UU penalty (A rather large one, 43% by his calculations) but two other players are permanently banned. Does this seem fair to you? They exploited the same bug they should all be punished the same. I'm not saying that they should be let off, but there should not be drastically different punishments for a very similar offense. Perhaps they should lose slightly more UU (% wise) but being permanently banned is a FAR FAR greater punishment. The difference in punishment is far greater then the difference in severity of the offence. JMO

-Alex


Last edited by Alex on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Minor gramatical fix)
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by ioz on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:07 am

Well.. I was unconscious and now this is the result.

I would like to start by apologizing for what I did. I know it broke the rules. In my defense I would like to say the following:

I am not a cheater by principle. I have been around these type of games for years now and this is, by far, my first offense. I would ask anyone to prove the contrary, no one can. I am by most standards a fair player, all except this one. This being my first offense I would guarantee I would NEVER do anything like this again and that I would report all bugs from now on as soon as I discover/find out about them.

I never used it to gain an advantage over others:
- I did not mass anyone using the information I gained
- I did not use knowing when someone gets off PPT by waiting to hit them the second the PPT expired
- I did not do it to save CT\'s in order to use them to sabotage anyone since I have not sabotaged one person ever since I found out about this exploit
- I did not use it to spy on players that had too high covert for me to be able to spy on them as my covert is high enough for me to spy on ANYONE outside TIE. The only players in TIE who have too high covert for me to spy on I can check by using the adviser powers I have.

I never told anyone about it because it would have meant risking other players using this exploit to gain unfair advantages like the ones I mentioned at point no. 2.

I put a lot of work into my account. I have been waking up at night and I have had my alarm to wake me up in the morning to bank when I feared for my income, I have managed to get to have one of the strongest accounts in the game in only 6 months by spending hours and hours on this game, trying to find new ways of growing better and faster and, always, in a FAIR way. I am not a person with the financial means to buy resources for $. All the SS\'s or personal bonus changes I got I got by trading resources for them.

That is why all this work means so much to me. I could not start over with a new account and I am sure most of you can understand the attachment I have with it. It just would not be the same. I rarely got into a conflict with anyone and I have done my best to stay out of the huge conflicts on the forums and ingame because I am not an aggressive person and I always rather make friends. That is because I think that the core of these sort of games is the community that plays, not the struggle to be #1 nor the wars that keep people entertained. I am glad to be able to, after only 6 months, call so many people my friends now even though it is just online.

I know what I did was wrong and I am willing to pay for my mistake. It is so stupid now that I look back... the only reason I even used it in the first place was out of comfort. Why waste time on spying 2-3 times on someone to see the def or the UU out when you can just type an id into a link and get it? The answer is painfully obvious now but.. my lack of judgment got the better of me for the first time and, since I am a person who learns from his mistakes, the last.

I am in front of you now asking that you allow me to continue playing this game, that you allow me to keep my account and that you allow me to keep being a member of this community. I could ask you to only take from me what I have taken from others and to only harm me as much as I harmed others. Why? Because I have not harmed anyone by abusing this bug. Yes, I have abused it a number of times but never to hurt someone and never to get ANY advantage that I couldn\'t have gotten without using it.

These are the reasons why I ask you to be lenient and not punish me too severely. All the technical information in this post can be confirmed by Admin if necessary. After all the time spent here this game and the community surrounding it have become .. of importance to me. Sadly, even my girlfriend can confirm that. If I would have believed I would harm anyone by using this bug I wouldn\'t have done it because I hate the idea of using exploits to get ahead and I would have reported it. Add to that the fear of losing everything I worked so hard for in the past months and I hope that you will understand my position.

I apologize to all of you for my actions and I pledge that, given I will be allowed to play this game again, I will never do anything like this again and the shame brought upon me by my actions will exist for a very long time. I am sorry.

This is where I rest my case in the hope of a favorable verdict.

Respectfully yours,
ioz
This is the text I prepared in my defense. I have been unbanned and a chunk of my armysize was taken away. I accept the punishment dealt to my account and I deserved it.

I have a few comments regarding this topic... nigatsu, what you say is that abusing this bug made the covert function of the game useless and that it gave me a HUGE advantage. As I mentioned in the above text is that I have noone in the game I cannot spy on and neither do any of the other players whom I know of that have abused this function. All it gave me was a comfortable alternative to spying since it saved me a few clicks. It wasn\'t even to save CT\'s since I never sab and I almost always have 50+ CT\'s. My covert power is enough to spy on ANYONE outside my alliance.

I do not mean to argue on this matter since I am directly involved but please consider the points made in my plea above.

Thank you.


Last edited by ioz on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Nigatsu_Aka on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:09 am

Well, i am a player and a person who doesn't like cheaters. If you ask me about the punishment, then my answer would always be ban all the cheaters no matter the severity of their illegality. So, don't ask me if it's fair how admin reacted because my answer will be biased.

Also, let's not derail the thread and burry the important things in useless spam. Thanks.
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Re: BaseO bug.

Post by Vesper on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:51 am

Universe wrote:Nigatsu said it. I won't comment on the how and why of admin arranging his affairs, because I know too little about that, but I feel it's his right to be judge, jury and executioner in this kind of thing. It's what we all agreed on when we registered to play AderanWars. Smile If he decides to ban more people, then that's his right as the owner of this game.



Spoiler:
Vesper wrote: blah blah blah it's all so unfair wah wah wah omg admin is doing his brother favours and is just another person who is intent on making tie look bad wah wah wah
And they call me paranoid. Rolling Eyes (Forgive me if my summary was too short, I believe I got all of your main points though?)

RIght and Uni can use the bug and exploit it longer then anybody else yet she doesnt receive any penalty at all? How does that make any sense at all?

@Nigatsu Nobody says that there should be no punishment. It would make sense that the punishment is the same for everybody and not single out players because you have personal disagreements with them like a petty child
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Re: BaseO bug.

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