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ALL bugs into this topic until further notice

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Gamniac
Kenzu
kingkongfan1
Nomad
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Post by Gamniac Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:45 am

Just to keep track of the update, realm alert level has apparently been changed as well (unless it's an old change I've missed until now).
It now costs a gradual 0-4 AT and ST to go upwards to critical, as opposed to 5 AT and ST to change to any level of alert.
Guess that means it costs 1 Turnset to go to Low Alert, then an additional 3 for moving up from Low to Critical, then 2 to drop back to Medium, correct?
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Post by Special Agent 47 Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:40 am

Kenzu wrote:I'll tell admin to check your account and fix any issues.

Here some info:
Admin has been working very hard on updates and released all the updates on the test server yesterday.
Would you clarify this please. Do you mean all planned updates have been released? Or just that all released updates were released yesterday? I ask because I am still missing a few things that were discussed in the past as coming, so just wondering.

The list of changes is not yet written, but it is being compiled.

Here are some of the changes. I might have missed some, and some might not be coded yet, but will be added in the future (changes to these updates could still be made to them, ie they might work differently when released):

In addition to airforce changes:

main 3 overtime techs are unlocked by research center 2
healing tech will be unlocked by a combination of research center 2 + Hospital
overtime bank technologies by a combination of research center 2 + Bank (or Central Bank)

Resources won't be able to stay on the Galactic market forever the way they are now (a fee will be deducted if you keep them for over a week)
However you can still withdraw them and place them on the market to make offers on trades, keeping them in circulation (in this case they stay there until sold).

The limitation on saving kuwal outside bank is counterbalanced by being able to research techs gradually, keeping investing into them until the full research cost is paid, there will be more opportunities how to increase bank size, and small players will benefit from a much larger initial bank size (increased from 50 million to 100gold=about 70 billion)
Do you know if the MR wasted on bank space are still planned to be refunded? I still feel this is a needle in the eye of those who choose to grow instead of intentinally staying small and reaping the additional income, but it seems that it will definitely make it to main so time to adapt.

Overtime technologies do the following:
1) increase your cap, allowing you to stay in each mode longer (relaxed and overtime)
2) Overtime income tech increases the kuwal production during overtime
In relaxed you produce 70% so you are losing 30%, in overtime you start with 115% and can increase it to 130%, thus allowing you to use these modes at no loss.
3) Overtime production allows you to increase the training of units, building of weapons and construction of buildings.
4) Overtime banking allows you to bank a % of your overtime income. (But it can be raised only to a percentage, that you still keep producing around 100% of your normal work mode income, so that farmers are not hurt by this tech).

I noticed the MR limit is now 25? Not sure if that is new or not.

I see the tool tip for assault is still misleading. I hope it is reworded and corrected soon.


work condition use to be 1,000 but is now 750 as well. I see now, you have to increase it in advanced research.

It tells me to build a central bank but there is no construction option.

Can we go ahead and get a explination on general bombardment?
I see it dropped my opponents economic production by a % for the next 5 days. Is that a 2.5% drop in income and a 2.5% drop in UP?
Are lost UU valued by Market or how exactly?
Seems to follow the same system as the rest, basically trading Kuwal for Kuwal? Is that correct? At what rate? I am vastly superior yet lost 2.5
Times more then my enemy. Can that rate be altered? Do any building or construction effect this rate?
Are progressive attacks weaker and weaker? Can a person have their economic production halted?

I see training facility construction rate has gone from 40 to 200 and weapon factory construction rate from 20 to 150. Why are they not the same?
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Post by Kenzu Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:34 pm

Gamniac wrote:Just to keep track of the update, realm alert level has apparently been changed as well (unless it's an old change I've missed until now).
It now costs a gradual 0-4 AT and ST to go upwards to critical, as opposed to 5 AT and ST to change to any level of alert.
Guess that means it costs 1 Turnset to go to Low Alert, then an additional 3 for moving up from Low to Critical, then 2 to drop back to Medium, correct?
Yes. It allows more flexibility, but if you only use none and critical then it doesn't influence you at all.

Special Agent 47 wrote:
Kenzu wrote:I'll tell admin to check your account and fix any issues.

Here some info:
Admin has been working very hard on updates and released all the updates on the test server yesterday.
Would you clarify this please. Do you mean all planned updates have been released? Or just that all released updates were released yesterday? I ask because I am still missing a few things that were discussed in the past as coming, so just wondering.

The list of changes is not yet written, but it is being compiled.

Here are some of the changes. I might have missed some, and some might not be coded yet, but will be added in the future (changes to these updates could still be made to them, ie they might work differently when released):

In addition to airforce changes:

main 3 overtime techs are unlocked by research center 2
healing tech will be unlocked by a combination of research center 2 + Hospital
overtime bank technologies by a combination of research center 2 + Bank (or Central Bank)

Resources won't be able to stay on the Galactic market forever the way they are now (a fee will be deducted if you keep them for over a week)
However you can still withdraw them and place them on the market to make offers on trades, keeping them in circulation (in this case they stay there until sold).

The limitation on saving kuwal outside bank is counterbalanced by being able to research techs gradually, keeping investing into them until the full research cost is paid, there will be more opportunities how to increase bank size, and small players will benefit from a much larger initial bank size (increased from 50 million to 100gold=about 70 billion)
Do you know if the MR wasted on bank space are still planned to be refunded? I still feel this is a needle in the eye of those who choose to grow instead of intentinally staying small and reaping the additional income, but it seems that it will definitely make it to main so time to adapt.

Overtime technologies do the following:
1) increase your cap, allowing you to stay in each mode longer (relaxed and overtime)
2) Overtime income tech increases the kuwal production during overtime
In relaxed you produce 70% so you are losing 30%, in overtime you start with 115% and can increase it to 130%, thus allowing you to use these modes at no loss.
3) Overtime production allows you to increase the training of units, building of weapons and construction of buildings.
4) Overtime banking allows you to bank a % of your overtime income. (But it can be raised only to a percentage, that you still keep producing around 100% of your normal work mode income, so that farmers are not hurt by this tech).

I noticed the MR limit is now 25? Not sure if that is new or not.
The limit was 16 before. Now it has been increased to 25. It allows you to convert MR less frequently, which is especially useful if you want to keep 10 MT at all times.

I see the tool tip for assault is still misleading. I hope it is reworded and corrected soon.
Ok

work condition use to be 1,000 but is now 750 as well. I see now, you have to increase it in advanced research.
Work Condition tooltip is misleading too.
Before relaxed added 20 points of working condition per turn. Now it adds 5 points. Critical took away 30 points before, now it takes away also 5 points.

This means that while before your working condition refilled fully after only 50 turns, now it takes 150 turns (about 3 days). This gives players more flexibility. Considering you refill and use up working condition equally fast, and you lose initially 30% and gain 15% kuwal, conditions give the same initial benefit, but now can be improved with research.
before for each 30% income you lost you could recover only 15%, now it's still the same, but can be improved.


It tells me to build a central bank but there is no construction option.
You must build a bank before you can build a central bank. You also need construction yard 3.

Can we go ahead and get a explination on general bombardment?
I see it dropped my opponents economic production by a % for the next 5 days. Is that a 2.5% drop in income and a 2.5% drop in UP?
Only income drop.

Are lost UU valued by Market or how exactly?
Lost UU are valued at average galactic prices of the last 30 days.

Seems to follow the same system as the rest, basically trading Kuwal for Kuwal?

Is that correct? At what rate? I am vastly superior yet lost 2.5
Times more then my enemy. Can that rate be altered? Do any building or construction effect this rate?
Are progressive attacks weaker and weaker? Can a person have their economic production halted?

I assume you talk only about bombardment.
Bombardment always destroys the same value of kuwal as the kuwal that the bombs are worth. If you are technologically advanced, you should first bomb everything else (airforce, buildings, air buildings), if you will have better ratios there, and go on bombardment missions only afterwards, when you still have bombs left.

The bombardment mission always deals 1:1 damage ratio.
Therefore other missions are more likely to offer better results.

If you lost more value than what you killed in a bombardment mission then there must be a BUG! I'll tell admin to look at your missions. He did fix some airforce mission flaws yesterday. Try the mission again if it works correctly now.

The bombardment mission has 2 phases. First phase where you engage enemy airforce and SAMs defending the player, and the 2nd phase where you actually bomb the infrastructure. The 2nd phase should always result in a 1:1 damage ratio. Nothing can influence this ratio.

You can decrease a players income production only by a certain number of percent. You cannot drop his income by 50% for example. Once his income is dropped by the maximum amount, no more missions against him will be allowed. You can test that by bombing a very small player. (If bombing someone to drop income to 0 was possible, it would destroy the game and everyone would quit.)



I see training facility construction rate has gone from 40 to 200 and weapon factory construction rate from 20 to 150. Why are they not the same?

I want them to be the same too. Admin staunchly opposes this.
Maybe he can explain to you why he wants them to be produced at different speeds. I personally want them at the same speeds, because I like consistency.
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Post by Gamniac Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:49 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Gamniac wrote:Just to keep track of the update, realm alert level has apparently been changed as well (unless it's an old change I've missed until now).
It now costs a gradual 0-4 AT and ST to go upwards to critical, as opposed to 5 AT and ST to change to any level of alert.
Guess that means it costs 1 Turnset to go to Low Alert, then an additional 3 for moving up from Low to Critical, then 2 to drop back to Medium, correct?
Yes. It allows more flexibility, but if you only use none and critical then it doesn't influence you at all.

Actually, it does. It saves me one At and in ST whenever I switch between critical or none.
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Post by Admin Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:55 pm

Nomad wrote:Nope, its even worse then expected. Useing the raid link actually does a kewal farm hit. Just wasted a hell of a lot of AT.
Well blow me down.
Assault, destruction, invasion and hunt assassin ALL become a kewal farming attack.
This has been definitely fixed now, and I have returned you the attack turns you lost

================================================================================
kingkongfan1 wrote:Not sure this is a bug or not, but it would appear that there have been great changes made to my Air Force, both on the admins side with the cost & strength + the particular number of Items & munitions I had built.

Example- 1) I only had 20,000 hangars built, now I have 100,000...
2) I had only 20,000/200,000 fighters & munitions built, now I have 100,000/1,000,000...
3) [Your Production per Turn {500}2,500 SAM Systems {500}2,500 Aircraft and {5,000}25,000 pieces of munition] this has been changed as mine are in the{}...
4) my Air Force total power was over 1.4 trillion it has been dropped to[Total Power 511,560,000,000] I was rank 3 Air Force, I am now rank 7...
5) the power & costs of the various items in air force have been changed,,,

not exactly sure what has happened/is happening, so I thought I would mention it.
Due to certain factors like more accurate damage reports, airforce has been changed by a factor of 5
All AF related buildings are cheaper and build faster. AF units are weaker and cheaper and everything you had has been increased to keep same power.

The power calculation was a bug, so force your AF to update (sell piece of each or build each) and you'll get the new numbers which should be identical to the old ones again
================================================================================
Nomad wrote:Can confirm. Major changes in the amounts I have trained and built, also major changes in the amount of hangers built. I got rid of several different levels of weapons but now have multiple levels of different weapons with different levels of munitions.
Weapon levels should not have changed as far as I'm aware (although i know that at one point research was set to develop unit before munition and now you develop munition before unit so that might have potentially caused a difference)
But your inventory in terms of levels should definitely not have changed
================================================================================
kingkongfan1 wrote:ok, so there have been changes made, are you saying that admin put more hangars on my acct than what I had? & that he put more fighters/munitions & sams/munitions on my acct than what I had? what about the increase in the number of items that get built per turn? Also, I noticed this morning that there are sams & munitions that I put in to build yesterday before any changes were made to my acct part were built, the rest are frozen as nothing was built after the changes were made to my acct. Any info on this would be appreciated.
There were changes to the building script so building airforce did not progress due to a bug, however I have multiplied what you had ordered before 5 times now (when you had ordered 5k sams before, you would have 25k in order now)
================================================================================
Nomad wrote:They don't do patch notes here.
We're all very funny here
================================================================================
kingkongfan1 wrote:another change I just noticed...

Motivation (375 / 750), it was (0/1000) I cannot understand why this was done.
there's a change in the work motivation, there's 2 new buildings as well as 4 new technologies related to work conditions

**EDIT**

ok, after thinking about this for a bit, & discussing it with others, I can say that "I get it". Admin cut the power to 1/5 of what it was, & then gave me 5 times what I had to make up for it. this still leaves me wondering why there is a change in my Air Force total power? I had 1.4 trillion & was rank 3. after the changes I have [Total Power 511,560,000,000] & am currently rank 7.

I know I am a dumb ass at math, but it would seem to me that there should be no change in my total power if you decrease the power to 1/5 of what it was, & then give me 5X what I had, yet there is
Have each particular stat force an update by selling something or building something, it should update correctly again
================================================================================
Gamniac wrote:Just to keep track of the update, realm alert level has apparently been changed as well (unless it's an old change I've missed until now).
It now costs a gradual 0-4 AT and ST to go upwards to critical, as opposed to 5 AT and ST to change to any level of alert.
Guess that means it costs 1 Turnset to go to Low Alert, then an additional 3 for moving up from Low to Critical, then 2 to drop back to Medium, correct?
That is indeed the case, it's a new change.
Reducing realm alert (going from crit to med, etc.) does not cost anything
However increasing it, is now only a gradual cost as you described based on the levels difference
================================================================================
Kenzu wrote:
Special Agent 47 wrote:
Kenzu wrote:I'll tell admin to check your account and fix any issues.

Here some info:
Admin has been working very hard on updates and released all the updates on the test server yesterday.
Would you clarify this please. Do you mean all planned updates have been released? Or just that all released updates were released yesterday? I ask because I am still missing a few things that were discussed in the past as coming, so just wondering.
Most of what is planned to be released is released, some things are missing however nothing I consider major. for example assassin/covert missions aswell as non AF way to kill AF aren't planned for release yet due to some unresolved issues
either way after release, AF missions will be unavailable for some time (3-4 weeks) to allow everyone to build adequate defenses first, maybe the AF countermissions will be added when AF missions are unlocked


The list of changes is not yet written, but it is being compiled.

Here are some of the changes. I might have missed some, and some might not be coded yet, but will be added in the future (changes to these updates could still be made to them, ie they might work differently when released):

In addition to airforce changes:

main 3 overtime techs are unlocked by research center 2
healing tech will be unlocked by a combination of research center 2 + Hospital
overtime bank technologies by a combination of research center 2 + Bank (or Central Bank)

Resources won't be able to stay on the Galactic market forever the way they are now (a fee will be deducted if you keep them for over a week)
However you can still withdraw them and place them on the market to make offers on trades, keeping them in circulation (in this case they stay there until sold).
Sufficient notice will be given about any of this


The limitation on saving kuwal outside bank is counterbalanced by being able to research techs gradually, keeping investing into them until the full research cost is paid, there will be more opportunities how to increase bank size, and small players will benefit from a much larger initial bank size (increased from 50 million to 100gold=about 70 billion)
Do you know if the MR wasted on bank space are still planned to be refunded? I still feel this is a needle in the eye of those who choose to grow instead of intentinally staying small and reaping the additional income, but it seems that it will definitely make it to main so time to adapt.
For some reason I think that by "additional income" you're not talking about extra resources people had from using MT's not to increase bank size, because you said "staying small" which means keeping low army, which wouldn't make sense because when you have small army, you dont get additional income since bigger army always equals bigger income.
But either way, yes some portion will be refunded/able


Overtime technologies do the following:
1) increase your cap, allowing you to stay in each mode longer (relaxed and overtime)
2) Overtime income tech increases the kuwal production during overtime
In relaxed you produce 70% so you are losing 30%, in overtime you start with 115% and can increase it to 130%, thus allowing you to use these modes at no loss.
3) Overtime production allows you to increase the training of units, building of weapons and construction of buildings.
4) Overtime banking allows you to bank a % of your overtime income. (But it can be raised only to a percentage, that you still keep producing around 100% of your normal work mode income, so that farmers are not hurt by this tech).
Currently on main, if you go on relaxed and lost 600 mil kuwal, you will recover 300 mil kuwal with overtime
so update is, with no techs you recover half the kuwal again, upgrade the techs and you can recover 100% of it
Overtime banking simply puts 0-20% of your current INCOME (NOT kuwal on hand) into your bank each turn, you do not pay bank fees on this
Overtime Production only affects training, building weapons, airforce and buildings you build more than 1 piece of, you will still take a full day to build a con yard or an airport. All displays about turns remaining to construct building, units trained/weapons/airforce built per turn should automatically update at their usual places when you switch between normal/overtime


I noticed the MR limit is now 25? Not sure if that is new or not.
The limit was 16 before. Now it has been increased to 25. It allows you to convert MR less frequently, which is especially useful if you want to keep 10 MT at all times.
~1.5 weeks worth of production

I see the tool tip for assault is still misleading. I hope it is reworded and corrected soon.
Ok
first I had no clue what you meant by misleading, then I thought about it figured you meant how it doesn't say that you can destroy someone's defense faster if you send a bigger force so I fixed it

work condition use to be 1,000 but is now 750 as well. I see now, you have to increase it in advanced research.
Work Condition tooltip is misleading too.
Before relaxed added 20 points of working condition per turn. Now it adds 5 points. Critical took away 30 points before, now it takes away also 5 points.
has been fixed

This means that while before your working condition refilled fully after only 50 turns, now it takes 150 turns (about 3 days). This gives players more flexibility. Considering you refill and use up working condition equally fast, and you lose initially 30% and gain 15% kuwal, conditions give the same initial benefit, but now can be improved with research.
before for each 30% income you lost you could recover only 15%, now it's still the same, but can be improved.


It tells me to build a central bank but there is no construction option.
You must build a bank before you can build a central bank. You also need construction yard 3.

Can we go ahead and get a explination on general bombardment?
I see it dropped my opponents economic production by a % for the next 5 days. Is that a 2.5% drop in income and a 2.5% drop in UP?
Only income drop.

Are lost UU valued by Market or how exactly?
Lost UU are valued at average galactic prices of the last 30 days.
There is only one single mission where lost uu are relevant, ground forces attack

Seems to follow the same system as the rest, basically trading Kuwal for Kuwal?

Is that correct? At what rate? I am vastly superior yet lost 2.5
Times more then my enemy. Can that rate be altered? Do any building or construction effect this rate?
You lost 2.5 times more than your enemy because you did a bombardment mission on a player where the max you could reduce, 5%, was equal to 1 million income over 5 days. Your cheapest bomb was worth 2.4 millions. Find a more lucrative target and you will notice that you are actually destroying the same income as you spend on munition
Are progressive attacks weaker and weaker? Can a person have their economic production halted?

I assume you talk only about bombardment.
Bombardment always destroys the same value of kuwal as the kuwal that the bombs are worth. If you are technologically advanced, you should first bomb everything else (airforce, buildings, air buildings), if you will have better ratios there, and go on bombardment missions only afterwards, when you still have bombs left.

The bombardment mission always deals 1:1 damage ratio.
Therefore other missions are more likely to offer better results.

If you lost more value than what you killed in a bombardment mission then there must be a BUG! I'll tell admin to look at your missions. He did fix some airforce mission flaws yesterday. Try the mission again if it works correctly now.
no bug there, 1 million damage but only 1 piece of ammunition used

The bombardment mission has 2 phases. First phase where you engage enemy airforce and SAMs defending the player, and the 2nd phase where you actually bomb the infrastructure. The 2nd phase should always result in a 1:1 damage ratio. Nothing can influence this ratio.

You can decrease a players income production only by a certain number of percent. You cannot drop his income by 50% for example. Once his income is dropped by the maximum amount, no more missions against him will be allowed. You can test that by bombing a very small player. (If bombing someone to drop income to 0 was possible, it would destroy the game and everyone would quit.)

You always reduce income with each hit for 5 consecutive days
Maximum reduction is 30% of current income
Maximum reduction per mission 5% of natural production (if someone is already down to 80% then next mission will reduce income by 4% at most)
overtime/relaxed is unaffected by bombardment so if someone is on relaxed and maximum bombardment, then they will have 100-30-30 = 40% income. overtime means their income will be 100-30+30= 100% income


I see training facility construction rate has gone from 40 to 200 and weapon factory construction rate from 20 to 150. Why are they not the same?

I want them to be the same too. Admin staunchly opposes this.
Maybe he can explain to you why he wants them to be produced at different speeds. I personally want them at the same speeds, because I like consistency.

I have put them on the same level, I still have my reasons why I would want to see them different however I would agree that some changes to strike missions would need to be made first with respect to this

one more change is that a player can lose a maximum of 20% of all factories every 3 days. newly constructed buildings are counted into this cap so when someone is building new factories, you can hit them more often than just every 3 days

buildings have a non-image display view now added

================================================================================
Gamniac wrote:
Kenzu wrote:
Gamniac wrote:Just to keep track of the update, realm alert level has apparently been changed as well (unless it's an old change I've missed until now).
It now costs a gradual 0-4 AT and ST to go upwards to critical, as opposed to 5 AT and ST to change to any level of alert.
Guess that means it costs 1 Turnset to go to Low Alert, then an additional 3 for moving up from Low to Critical, then 2 to drop back to Medium, correct?
Yes. It allows more flexibility, but if you only use none and critical then it doesn't influence you at all.

Actually, it does. It saves me one At and in ST whenever I switch between critical or none.
Actually it saves you 6 AT/ST when you switch. cos before you lost 5 each when going from crit to none
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Post by kingkongfan1 Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:16 am

once my sams/sams munitions were released to finish building, then all went back to how it should have been. thanks for the fix.

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Post by Special Agent 47 Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:46 pm

Admin wrote:The limitation on saving kuwal outside bank is counterbalanced by being able to research techs gradually, keeping investing into them until the full research cost is paid, there will be more opportunities how to increase bank size, and small players will benefit from a much larger initial bank size (increased from 50 million to 100gold=about 70 billion)
Do you know if the MR wasted on bank space are still planned to be refunded? I still feel this is a needle in the eye of those who choose to grow instead of intentinally staying small and reaping the additional income, but it seems that it will definitely make it to main so time to adapt.
For some reason I think that by "additional income" you're not talking about extra resources people had from using MT's not to increase bank size, because you said "staying small" which means keeping low army, which wouldn't make sense because when you have small army, you dont get additional income since bigger army always equals bigger income.
But either way, yes some portion will be refunded/able

Actually the term additional income referrs to those who sell all their UP to increase their incomes to push their techs further. Large purcheses are often gotten by selling UU and spending a full bank. The bank size being needed for purchases was one of the last barriors that promoted size and pushing growth. With that removed there is less reason to grow since doing so slows your core stat growth and makes you more of a target for being farmed. As for bigger armies having bigger income that is false due to AE, weapon upkeep, officer pay, and other things that effect income. Many people 1/2 my size and smaller have a much higher income them myself.

I see the tool tip for assault is still misleading. I hope it is reworded and corrected soon.
Ok
first I had no clue what you meant by misleading, then I thought about it figured you meant how it doesn't say that you can destroy someone's defense faster if you send a bigger force so I fixed it
It is misleading because it states
you lose 5% of your strike force, enemy lose 4%
Yet in the other thread you and Kenzu have stated that is incorrect and the truth is the Defense loses 4% of its force, and the attacking force lose the same amount as the defense force plus 25% adjusted by techs. Tool tip says your size of attacking force decided the losses.


So which is it?

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Post by Admin Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:20 pm

Special Agent 47 wrote:
Actually the term additional income referrs to those who sell all their UP to increase their incomes to push their techs further. Large purcheses are often gotten by selling UU and spending a full bank. The bank size being needed for purchases was one of the last barriors that promoted size and pushing growth. With that removed there is less reason to grow since doing so slows your core stat growth and makes you more of a target for being farmed. As for bigger armies having bigger income that is false due to AE, weapon upkeep, officer pay, and other things that effect income. Many people 1/2 my size and smaller have a much higher income them myself.
There isn't a single person who can or does produce more income with a smaller armysize.
Spoiler:
I've spent over 20 minutes trying to write a proper reply but I still can't figure out how to explain this to you because I have already repeated this tons of times and you still refuse to believe the simple fact how bigger army equals bigger income apparently only because there's some people who still chose to sell their army believing what you believe to be true while in reality they are only being stupid and ignorant

that and i'm totally running ouf of ideas how to explain this to you


It is misleading because it states
you lose 5% of your strike force, enemy lose 4%
Yet in the other thread you and Kenzu have stated that is incorrect and the truth is the Defense loses 4% of its force, and the attacking force lose the same amount as the defense force plus 25% adjusted by techs. Tool tip says your size of attacking force decided the losses.


So which is it?
I've never said that, it has never been explained that way in any of the countless threads that described in detail how losses work
plus the tooltip is actually correct
If both sides are equally powerful, then attacker loses 5% and defender loses 4%
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Post by Gamniac Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:44 am

"If both sides are equally powerful, then attacker loses 5% and defender loses 4%"

Stick that in your tooltip and it is (somewhat) more accurate than it is now.
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Post by Special Agent 47 Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:48 am

Admin wrote:
Special Agent 47 wrote:
Actually the term additional income referrs to those who sell all their UP to increase their incomes to push their techs further. Large purcheses are often gotten by selling UU and spending a full bank. The bank size being needed for purchases was one of the last barriors that promoted size and pushing growth. With that removed there is less reason to grow since doing so slows your core stat growth and makes you more of a target for being farmed. As for bigger armies having bigger income that is false due to AE, weapon upkeep, officer pay, and other things that effect income. Many people 1/2 my size and smaller have a much higher income them myself.
There isn't a single person who can or does produce more income with a smaller armysize.
Spoiler:
I've spent over 20 minutes trying to write a proper reply but I still can't figure out how to explain this to you because I have already repeated this tons of times and you still refuse to believe the simple fact how bigger army equals bigger income apparently only because there's some people who still chose to sell their army believing what you believe to be true while in reality they are only being stupid and ignorant

that and i'm totally running ouf of ideas how to explain this to you


It is misleading because it states
you lose 5% of your strike force, enemy lose 4%
Yet in the other thread you and Kenzu have stated that is incorrect and the truth is the Defense loses 4% of its force, and the attacking force lose the same amount as the defense force plus 25% adjusted by techs. Tool tip says your size of attacking force decided the losses.


So which is it?
I've never said that, it has never been explained that way in any of the countless threads that described in detail how losses work
plus the tooltip is actually correct
If both sides are equally powerful, then attacker loses 5% and defender loses 4%

Going to try to clear this up, so bare with me.

Yes you are correct. Counting straight up income no army that is smaller will produce more income then a larger income force. That is a fact, that is completely understood with NO questions asked.

The Fact I am trying to show you and can prove 100 times over is that an account in this game has more turn based income then accounts 4, 5, even 10 times its size. This happens due to AE (it does by nature lower your turn income), officer payments, Commander payments, Weapon upkeep (remember, the larger more advanced weapons cost more per turn income then smaller less advanced, so a much smaller army requires a far smaller per turn upkeep), and merc payments. YES all of these are player controlled actions and should have a consequence. I am not saying this is "wrong". What I am saying is, and it can be proven many times over, that an account can sell its UU to increase its core stats to a level to compete with or exceed that of true growth based accounts. YES this leaves them with less reserves and lower base income, but a lower base income also means less weapons upkeep because fewer weapons are needed, no merc cost, not officer costs, No fear of being farmed due to no income, and with superior core stats they farm other "fat" accounts for more then they could ever produce on their own. If that can not be seen and recognized then send me a PM and I'll show you specific accounts that have now done this for the SECOND time, not just the first.


As for the tool tip, that is explained in the other thread. Kenzu came to forums and told information that was completely untrue, false, fabricated, whatever you want to call it. I was dumb enough to believe it. My fault, plain and simple.

That's why we ask for YOU to respond to certain things, but now a days you are to far gone/busy/whatever to ever reply. I will not make this mistake again and will disregard ALL posts by Kenzu on all of his accounts. Its just to damn much trouble to spend weeks trying to figure something out just to have you show up weeks later to say its all wrong.


Hope that helped to clear some things up.



Now back to this
Spoiler:

Just wanted to say I thought bombardment effected UP and income so that was my mistake, not sure where I got that idea from.

Again my term of "additional income" by staying small is a direct reference to selling UU for income. Has nothing to do with per turn income, but I think we have that all cleared up.

One question I am struggling to wrapp my mind around is from this

one more change is that a player can lose a maximum of 20% of all factories every 3 days. newly constructed buildings are counted into this cap so when someone is building new factories, you can hit them more often than just every 3 days

Now with construction rates up to 200 per turn, that means you can build 9,600 per day. That is 28,800 every 3 days. Does the above mean under constant bombardment only 20% of the 28,800 buildings can be destroyed?

Also, just to clarify, the limits are from all attacks against you, not 20% by one person, then another 20% by another, and so on?


Last edited by Special Agent 47 on Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Removed "lie")
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Post by Admin Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:09 pm

I'll reply to the first part when I get some time, for now this
Special Agent 47 wrote:
One question I am struggling to wrapp my mind around is from this

one more change is that a player can lose a maximum of 20% of all factories every 3 days. newly constructed buildings are counted into this cap so when someone is building new factories, you can hit them more often than just every 3 days

Now with construction rates up to 200 per turn, that means you can build 9,600 per day. That is 28,800 every 3 days. Does the above mean under constant bombardment only 20% of the 28,800 buildings can be destroyed?

Also, just to clarify, the limits are from all attacks against you, not 20% by one person, then another 20% by another, and so on?
limits are what YOU can lose in that timeframe, so it doesn't matter if you get hit by one person or 5, the cap is total lost by you, not how much anyone can kill individually

about how much you can actually kill:
The 20% is actually 20% of ((current buildings of that category) + (buildings of that category lost in last 3 days))

imagine you would have 30k training and 30k weapons
20% is 6k and 6k
So now you have 24k and 24k
Half a day passes and you see target built up to 30k again
If you go make another mission, the code calculates the following:
1) ((30k+30k) + (6k+6k) = 72k
2) 20% of 72k = 14.4k
3) Total killed in last 3 days : 6k+6k = 12k
4) 14.4k destroyable is bigger than 12k so you can bombard again until you destroy another 2.4k and go past 14.4k total destroyed
Basically you dont actually have to wait the 3 days to bombard agian, if someone start building more, you can hit them sooner for some more damage

Imagine target has 144k training/weapons, you bomb 20% of that every 3 days which would be 28.8k
They can only produce 28.8k in the next 3 days, so they get to 144k again
Once the 3 days are over and they reached 144k, you can bomb 20% again which would be 28.8k
Does that answer the question?
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Post by kingkongfan1 Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:50 pm

not sure what is going on, but I went to bed last night with 80 gold & got up with 89 gold. could you check it when you get time?
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Post by Special Agent 47 Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:38 pm

Admin wrote:I'll reply to the first part when I get some time, for now this
Special Agent 47 wrote:
One question I am struggling to wrapp my mind around is from this

one more change is that a player can lose a maximum of 20% of all factories every 3 days. newly constructed buildings are counted into this cap so when someone is building new factories, you can hit them more often than just every 3 days

Now with construction rates up to 200 per turn, that means you can build 9,600 per day. That is 28,800 every 3 days. Does the above mean under constant bombardment only 20% of the 28,800 buildings can be destroyed?

Also, just to clarify, the limits are from all attacks against you, not 20% by one person, then another 20% by another, and so on?
limits are what YOU can lose in that timeframe, so it doesn't matter if you get hit by one person or 5, the cap is total lost by you, not how much anyone can kill individually

about how much you can actually kill:
The 20% is actually 20% of ((current buildings of that category) + (buildings of that category lost in last 3 days))

imagine you would have 30k training and 30k weapons
20% is 6k and 6k
So now you have 24k and 24k
Half a day passes and you see target built up to 30k again
If you go make another mission, the code calculates the following:
1) ((30k+30k) + (6k+6k) = 72k
2) 20% of 72k = 14.4k
3) Total killed in last 3 days : 6k+6k = 12k
4) 14.4k destroyable is bigger than 12k so you can bombard again until you destroy another 2.4k and go past 14.4k total destroyed
Basically you dont actually have to wait the 3 days to bombard agian, if someone start building more, you can hit them sooner for some more damage

Imagine target has 144k training/weapons, you bomb 20% of that every 3 days which would be 28.8k
They can only produce 28.8k in the next 3 days, so they get to 144k again
Once the 3 days are over and they reached 144k, you can bomb 20% again which would be 28.8k
Does that answer the question?

Yes somewhat. You explination is good, my understanding is not. I do understand it is total loss per day, not individual attacks. Thanks.

I am a bit confused by being able to kill more and more but it is because the max amount is based from your 3 day high, plus the added building.

If you have time, help me understand this as its the simplest for we to wrap my head around.

I have 10,000 buildings. I get bombarded for 3 days straight. I will lose 2,000 per day? for a lose of 6,000 by the end of three days? Then I begin rebuilding as fast as possible. That is a rate of 9600 per day. What would the next 7 days look like with constant maximum bombing and constant maximun rebuilding?

What I am confused on is this, can a person rebuilding actually rebuild faster then the attacker can bring it down? Thats what I am trying to see.

Thank you for your time, sorry I have such a hard time completely understanding.
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Post by Manleva Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:28 pm

As I am not a maths wizz I find this to be very confusing and very complex. From what admin has first said the maximum loss in a 3 day period is 20%.

So if there were 10,000 then the maximum loss would be 2000 over 3 days (assuming no additional facilities are built)

From what I can see SA47 in his example is suggesting a 60% loss.

IF construction is added in then the calculation becomes very complex but I am assuming that the calculation looks something like start quantity of buildings + construction gives the total quantity from which 20% becomes destroyable.

I also see that there will come a point for players where the destruction rate will surpass the construction rate because the destruction is based as a percentage on constructed buildings while the construction rate is fixed.

To be perfectly honest if you want to be able to include the destruction of buildings then the destruction rate needs to be compared to the construction rate
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Post by Kenzu Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:00 pm

@SA47
If you have 10,000 buildings, it means someone can destroy 2,000 immediately, but then has to wait for 3 days before he can destroy more.

It is true you can rebuild a building type faster than it can be destroyed, but please consider that there are many types of buildings, which can be destroyed, and while someone can destroy 20% of all of them each 3 days, when you are rebuilding them, you dont rebuild them at once, but have to rebuild them in a row.

If somene bombs your buildings, they will probably not only destroy 20% of training facilities and weapon factories, but also aircraft, SAM and munition factories. It will take longer to recover 5 building types than 1 or types.

If you have an insane number of buildings, you won't be able to recover your buildings fast enough, however for players with normal building numbers they will be able to rebuild their buildings faster than they get destroyed if they have enough kuwal to rebuild it.

Rebuilding bombed buildings can become a very costly endeveaur when 20% gets destroyed every 3 days for the duration of a war.

It's important to consider that if normal players could have their buildings bombed faster than they can rebuild them, there is a risk it would brake the game and people just leave. That's why people can theoretically rebuild faster than it gets destroyed.

@Manleval
Yes you are right.
It's 2,000 out of 10,000, over 3 days, if no additional ones are built.

The construction rate and the destruction percentage per X time has been based on each other. And the situation has been analysed, including the number of buildings people have to ensure a balanced gameplay.
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Post by Special Agent 47 Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:16 pm

Thank you. It was my misunderstanding on the 20% per day/ 3 days.

Also you do make a good point about multiple buildings . You would need multiple buildings to not have a glaring weak spot, that I had not looked at yet and the set up does look pretty good.

I would like to further discuss building tactics but should do so in the other thread where I suggested it.
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Post by Admin Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:42 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:not sure what is going on, but I went to bed last night with 80 gold & got up with 89 gold. could you check it when you get time?
you mean to say you logged in and you got +9 gold instead of +10 for logging in, right?

I see it in the logs, not totally sure why though so I'll be doing some testing, you're not the only one affected though
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Post by kingkongfan1 Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:11 am

Admin wrote:
kingkongfan1 wrote:not sure what is going on, but I went to bed last night with 80 gold & got up with 89 gold. could you check it when you get time?
you mean to say you logged in and you got +9 gold instead of +10 for logging in, right?

I see it in the logs, not totally sure why though so I'll be doing some testing, you're not the only one affected though

yes, that is correct. sorry, I should have posted it that way.

**EDIT**

got up this morning (12 Oct) with 99 gold, so I will report that as the 89 I had yesterday with the daily +10 increase for today. I know this is being worked on, but thought I would report this anyway...


Last edited by kingkongfan1 on Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : **edit**)
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Post by Admin Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:37 pm

kingkongfan1 wrote:
Admin wrote:you mean to say you logged in and you got +9 gold instead of +10 for logging in, right?

I see it in the logs, not totally sure why though so I'll be doing some testing, you're not the only one affected though

yes, that is correct. sorry, I should have posted it that way.

**EDIT**

got up this morning (12 Oct) with 99 gold, so I will report that as the 89 I had yesterday with the daily +10 increase for today. I know this is being worked on, but thought I would report this anyway...
thanks for the input anyway though, there's always a silly chance I might miss something
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Post by kingkongfan1 Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm

got another item to discuss,,,

Advanced Technologies
Healing Wounded
Healing Speed: 9.00 % / Day
Upgrade Cost: 10,101,000,000 Kuwal
Upgrade by:[1] x 0.02%

I was going to increase this this morning, & every time I clicked the upgrade button, nothing happened. I thought I would point this out so it could be checked.

to be clear, I took kuwal out of the bank, & clicked on the "upgrade by:[1] x 0.02%" & nothing happened.
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Post by Admin Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:54 am

I'm still playing around with the cost and potential cap for that, will get back to that
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Post by kingkongfan1 Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:46 am

Admin wrote:I'm still playing around with the cost and potential cap for that, will get back to that
ok, thanks
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