Weapon system rework

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:51 pm

AdmiN's soldiers march onto the battlefield.

AdmiN's army was composed of:
975 Super Soldiers, 8,521 Regular Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries

975 Super Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery
8521 Regular Soldiers were armed with Mobile Artillery

Kaboobi awaited the invaders with the following:
103 Super Soldiers, 0 Regular Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries

103 Super Soldiers were armed with APC
Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 138,696,248 damage on the enemy!
This results in 12 casualties amongst the defending troops!

The defending forces return fire and inflict 1,013,541 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 52 casualties in their enemies ranks!

The assaulting armies engaged with a frontal assault
The defenders held their ground with a standard defense
AdmiN's forces Defeated the enemy!

Any further questions?
Edit: Please jiro and ishurue, confirm that you understand that the calculation for unit losses on the test server is IDENTICAL to the calculation method on the main server.
Identical meaning that there are absolutely ZERO changes that have been done to the system and are planned to be done. What you see here is exactly how it works on the main server too.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by seaborgium on Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Admin if that was on main how much would the repairs have been for you?

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:49 pm

seaborgium wrote:Admin if that was on main how much would the repairs have been for you?
Dunno, considering that was an assault mission, it would be a fair amount.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by seaborgium on Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:13 pm

I love the fact of no repairs.
However i know some thing its going to get more costly

bc of the weapons lost+UU lost.

I have my doubts that it will cost more.
just your hit there would have cost me at my current level
23,296,000 kuwal in losses.
I am sure the repairs would have been more.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:32 pm

well the 52 units lost is around ...

28-30 mil kuwal, give or take (as you can see I had around 8.5 normal soldiers to 1 super)

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Jiro on Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:01 pm

Point is, on main there is end end to it. At some point the defence is broken (because of weapons repair) and losses stop occurring. So it makes a huge difference when you are farming with a 100.000 army strike if the target has 10 power or 0, more than now, where there are no repairs at 500x the attack power.
So on main you would not be hammering at a defence the same amount of times as now, and so the losses would have been less.
On main, a defence gets broken after 15 - 20 attacks. On test it is at 30% after 30 attacks.
Yes, I am aware that Kuwal costs might have been high, but the repairs cost for both defender and attacker can be spent instantaneously, giving both the opportunity to influence the direction of the battle.
I cannot give you numbers and I would have to try massing a tiny player on main to tell you how it compares. Any volunteers?

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:15 pm

Actually the point you present is invalid. Because you still haven't presented any reasonable argument as to why it is necessary to drop a defense to 0.
I mean ok, you say to have no losses, but I'm still failing to see why it is so important to have no losses. No losses while doing what?


And in case you haven't noticed:
main using 15-20 attacks, you spend 600 ST's
You can have a look at how many assault missions you can do now with 600 ST's


Last edited by Admin on Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Jiro on Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:21 pm

Let's say I am arming my strike, I trained extra men and I need Kuwal for the weapons. So I farm inactives. If they have defence 0, I will lose no men and no weapons. If they have defence 100 I will lose many men, since they enter the battlefield unarmed.
Or does the no weapon repairs at strike 500x defence also apply to losses and will it remain in place?
Point is 15 attacks for destroying 100% of defence or 30 attacks for destroying 70% does mean a big decrease in the effect of an assault. But let's not argue before I come up with numbers.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:24 pm

was editing my post, read it

And about the arming your strike, well maybe it's not such a bright idea to train many soldiers without arming them? It's perfectly ok to build weapons first and train men afterwards.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Lord Ishurue on Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:08 pm

I saw your point but how is this fair

Ishurue's soldiers march onto the battlefield.

Ishurue's army was composed of:
852 Super Soldiers, 0 Regular Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries

243 Super Soldiers were armed with Main Battle Tank
609 Super Soldiers were armed with APC

Kaboobi awaited the invaders with the following:
40 Super Soldiers, 0 Regular Soldiers and 0 Mercenaries

40 Super Soldiers were armed with Heavy Mortar

Your field scouts report on the status of the enemy: The invaders deal 12,587,162 damage on the enemy!
This results in 4 casualties amongst the defending troops!

The defending forces return fire and inflict 272,277 damage on their opponents!
They manage to cause 7 casualties in their enemies ranks!

The assaulting armies engaged with normal attacks
The defenders held their ground with a standard defense
Ishurue's forces Defeated the enemy!

As Kaboobi's army runs from the battlefield the victors finish their assigned mission and return home:
It is reported that
Ishurue returns back to his homeworld, glorious and praised by many.
Kaboobi's troops gather their dead and return to their homes, awaiting their visitors to come again to match their strength once more.
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:11 pm

You killed 10% of their army, you lost 0.8%.
Really explain to me the problem, because I dont get what you're trying to say.

Spoiler:
How is it not fair that 40 guys dug in trenches shooting at a crowd of people running towards them, kill more units than the guys who are running across an open field?

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Lord Ishurue on Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:25 pm

Admin wrote:You killed 10% of their army, you lost 0.8%.
Really explain to me the problem, because I dont get what you're trying to say.

Spoiler:
How is it not fair that 40 guys dug in trenches shooting at a crowd of people running towards them, kill more units than the guys who are running across an open field?

Yes i remember that .

But what im trying to get at is there should be a point were even if your enemy has some defense left they do no damage to you . you should be able to drop an enemy defense to 0 with out so many missions .

Currently it takes about 10 - 16 successful assaults to drop a defense to 0 . this new system is impossible to drop a defense to 0 .

Me and 2 other guys did over 50 assaults and over 60 sabs and kaboobi's defense still never hit 0 .

thats what doesnt make any sense to this system . could 40 toddlers be able to kill 1000 adults ? or at the very least injure 1 ?
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Nomad on Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:41 pm

Ishurue, did you try assasinations and sabotages?

and while I agree with the jest of what your saying, fact is a 12 yr old with 1 well defended weapon can kill multiple attacker no matter their age or skill if they are advancing in an open field and can not take his defended position.
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:00 pm

I'm still waiting for a sensible answer about this:
Admin wrote:Actually the point you present is invalid. Because you still haven't presented any reasonable argument as to why it is necessary to drop a defense to 0.
I mean ok, you say to have no losses, but I'm still failing to see why it is so important to have no losses. No losses while doing what?

Oh yeah, unless I get a good answer on this, I am actually thinking of disallowing sabotage and assassination to zero a stat.
Along with this, ishurue if you want i'll show you how to zero a defense on the test server, even though I still fail to see why it's so important

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by seaborgium on Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:09 pm

After thinking about it... there is no way to 0 a def in rl...
France fell to germany but there was still resitance.

I think I know why ish and a few want it to be 0.. its due too habits die hard.

I wouldn't make it impossiable to 0 just below apoint it should happen naturaly

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:39 pm

seaborgium wrote:I think I know why ish and a few want it to be 0.. its due too habits die hard.
I know perfectly well why they want it to be reachable "easily".
However what I'm trying to do for the last week is to make them realize that=>

Before LoseKuwal to repair weapons
KillMiners/Assassins
Tiny bit of defense units
NowLoseWeapons
Soldiers
KillMiners/Assassins
Enemy defense units die 500% more easily

Hence them finally realizing that the reason which existed before that made it important to get a def to 0 before wiping the rest of the account does not exist anymore, resulting in the attacker easily being able to ignore if the defender has rebuilt/left with a token defense.


However if someone has a better idea of having some people realize this than the current idea I am following, by having them explain to me exactly why it would be necessary for them to get a def to ZERO, then I will gladly start implementing it.
I could just ignore them and let the sands of time grind these obvious facts into them but that would not be what I am trying to achieve.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by seaborgium on Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:37 pm

i still not 100% sold on the idea.

From the numbers people have posted...
I see 1 major defference

you save KUWAL

currently the cost to repair while mass someone can cost you more then the weapon itself.

I not so sure about getting to the rest of the account after massing.
I hadn't massed much before.

my only real question is the 500% rule still in place with the new system?

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Hai-Shulud on Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:39 pm

Oh god i finally get it! Wow i feel a bit stupid now!!!

I will start playing around again but this time actually try and learn instead of doing what we always do before these updates and saying - "duhh why isnt it working scratch "

For a side point - The reason we want to be able 0 a defence is when you mass someone you use people with the power to do it spending a lot of AT, ST and kuwal. Once you remove their defence the smaller players in your alliance can be used to sit on the opposition allowing the large strike teams to take down one target at a time. With the new system the strike teams would have to keep everyone down and the smaller players would be useless. So really its just for tactical reasons
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Alex on Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:22 am

One reason to mass someone to 0 (I'm not sure if this is still valid or not with the other changes) is to allow you smaller alliance mates to be able to farm/raid them with no repairs losses etc. If the person has such a small defence that YOU wouldn't take losses (Your strike is over 500x their defence) that doesn't mean that your smaller alliance mates wont take damage (As they have smaller strikes).

Correct me if that is no longer an issue, though I will be away for a week so I wont see it Razz

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:56 am

@ seaborgium
You dont save kuwal

Before when massing you repaired your weapons as the attacker and needed a big amount saved up to be successful. As a consequence, a good part of your strike remained standing after the massing.

Now , the only difference that is happening, is that instead of the kuwal going into repairing weapons after each hit. Will go into rebuilding weapons and retraining new attack units after/during the mass.

And the 500% rule is obviously not in place then anymore. It's only in place to save repair costs, considering repair costs will not exist anymore, there's no reason to keep that rule.

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Nigatsu_Aka on Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:28 am

Only United States has the right to plunder the oil fields in irak. The other limpers who helped are just happy that they belong to NATO and that there is one less dictator in the world.

Who's next in line for plundering? ... my bet is that either Yemen or Syria either Venezuela.


In other words, wars are fought by the big for the big. The limpers only get the feeling of achievment and the hope that one day, they could chew a bone felt from their table.


Why everyone wants the defense to be ZEROed? Because they need the limpers to take over some of the tasks.
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by ian on Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:24 pm

Nigatsu_Aka wrote:Only United States has the right to plunder the oil fields in irak. The other limpers who helped are just happy that they belong to NATO and that there is one less dictator in the world.

I would remind you that those "other limpers" happened to include the UK - which contributed over 40,000 troops to the invasion of Iraq. More importantly the UKs diplomatic leverage it still possesses - mainly links to The Commonwealth of nations happened to help with "other limpers" participating in the invasion and coalition, or att he least otherwise staying out and not diplomatically opposssing the invasion. Not to mention the Uk's position in the U.N and European Union also served a strong diplomatic purpose in helping to limit opposittion to the invasion (had the world been more hostile to the coalition invading Iraq it would not have been possible).

Hate to break the news to you, but the USA is not the be all and end all power some people think it is. Its "dominant" position in the world is only maintained by the support, aid and good-will of the nations you described as "limpers". Would you care to try and guess as to what would happen to the USA's dominant position in the world or its ability to project power in the world, if all the US's allies (a.k.a "limpers") were to ask the USA to kindly get the hell of their land and withdraw their military bases?

Here's something for you to consider when deciding whether a nation is a "limper" or not - at the height of its empire Britain controlled 2/5's of the world's surface, a population of over 2billion people... yet retained this land and control of the populace with an army of less than 100,000. Brute military force only gets you so far.....

Its diplomacy and influence - the ability to keep others from oppossing you, and the ability to enlist allies and coalitions to your cause - which wins wars. Without the other coalition's support the invasion would never have happened.
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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Sandwalker on Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:34 pm

Humans were the shit in The Federation. Vulcans & Company were just limpers that had no right to plunder romulan booty.

At the height of their empire, the dinosaurs completely dominated 100% of the world's surface. They're still extinct.

Please don't bring nationalist crap in here (usa or gb, doesn't matter). Please.


Last edited by Sandwalker on Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:41 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Admin on Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:35 pm

can we skip politics? and sandwalker, despite you thinking otherwise

brute strength really isn't everything

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Re: Weapon system rework

Post by Sandwalker on Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:40 pm

Admin wrote:can we skip politics? and sandwalker, despite you thinking otherwise

brute strength really isn't everything

I actually was talking against politics, not GB or USA in particular.

And as a side note: Gunboat diplomacy isn't diplomacy.

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