Killing miners

So i tested it on the number one account which is feeded to extreme btw and i disapointed of how it works. Perhaps you shouldn`t limit this attack to the number of armed soldiers and let only that limit of 0.25% per attack?

Final analysis of the mission indicates a total of
0 Workers and
894 Miners
to have been killed in the onslaught.

killing 900 miners out of 700.000 is nothing. This attack is very expensive and i don`t think that someone will use it efficiently in main, considering that the price of attacks goes with the raiding rates.

Just an opinion.

They can`t afford this attack either the way it is now. But they can afford to train only miners, getting bigger incomes and when they get on them "single kewal hits" smash you to pieces.

It`s just how i see it... you`ll see that i`m right in about 6 months time.

well i know where youre coming at and suggestions for tweaks are welcome, considering no real changes have been done to it since release.

now upping killing rate is an option, i intentionally made it really low in the start because I had no data to work with.
However in that case it'd be accompanied with the option to either target only miners or only workers (NEVER both), but increasing killing rates 3-4 times.

Sounds like a plan. I`m retained to propose any death rate because i don`t want to be blamed for it, but for now, this attack is just for cosmetic purposes because it won`t be used by anyone as it is. So yeah, i backup the ideea to increase the killing rate and to select what is the target between workers and miners.

i woudl have to agree with nigatsu about increasing death rates, as pointed, what goods an attack that does next to nothing when compared to the costing, this form of attack shoudl always be the most expensive, but 1% is too low for it to be an effective means of lowering someones income

initially the plan was something like army being able to go and actually kill income units creating long term decrease of income

and airforce having the ability of supression bombardment temporarily decreasing income depending on how much you bombard the target but with several hits you can bring down the income by 30-50% for a day or two, but you wouldn't be killing anything here, just "stopping production"

I d say killing miners should be increased by a factor of 4 and the amount of supply turns needed reduced to 1/2 of the amount - so requiring 10 supply turns to kill 1% of miners with each invasion hit.

Example of how things currently stand:

At current UU and Attack turn rates, 10 A.T can roughly get you about 140 UU if you raid with them currently - so 14,000,000 million kuwals worth.

15 A.T used in killing miners, therefore for it to be practically used, should kill more than 21,000,000 kuwals worth of enemy resources - 210 UU.

0.25% of 300,000 miners = 750 UU's worth. 0.25% of 150,000 miners = 375 UU's worth. 0.25% of 85,000 miners = 212 UU.

This means, even once you factor in repair costs and your own losses, anyone with above 100,000 miners could probably have profitable miner-kill hits conducted on them. Anyone past 100,000 miners could potentially, if the attacker has enough attack and supply turns - be reduced down to 100,000 miners - and rightfully so if we are serious about the income units ever being balanced.

Thus, to throw some more figures out there - to reduce a person from 300,000 miners down to 100,000 miners would take 439 attacks - 6,585 attack turns - 8,780 supply turns - thats more supply turns that 4 players can hold.

Farmers are suppossed to be the "safe" option - balancing less income, with being safe from invaded and loosing their income units. Right now though, miners are practically untouchable to any serious extent - so the farmers chief benefit/ advantage is irrelevant.

Increasing the kill rate by a factor of 4 - from 0.25% to 1% of miners killed - would have the effect of in the above example, a player being reduced from 300,000 miners to 100,000 miners would take 110 hits - 1,650 attack turns and 2,200 supply turns without the reduction in supply turns.

Reducing the supply turns to 10 per hit, would thus have the implication of using up 1100 supply turns to reduce a player from 300,000 to 100,000 miners.

Fast forward to 2months time, when people have 2million+ miners, and want to reduce them down to 100,000 miners (which would still be profitable to do so) - it would take 299 hits - 4,485 attack turns and 5,980 supply turns if requiring 20 supply turns - or 2,990 supply turns if requiring 10 supply turns - or 1,495 supply turns if only requiring 5 supply turns.

Increase the kill rate by a factor of 4 by all means - but also reduce the supply turns needed from 20 down to eithier 10 or 5 (prefarably 5). You might also want to tie in the maximum amount of supply turns someone can hold, with their army size or something to allow a steadily rising limit on the maximum amount of supply turns - to factor in increased army sizes and therefore massively increased use of supply turns in future wars.

Right now though - with the supply turn consumption - its physically impossible to go 1 vs. 1 with someone in a total war, due to not having enough supply turns - and this doesn't take into account other demands on the supply turns!

Increasing the kill rates by a factor of 4 - and reducing supply turns down to 5 per hit, coupled with a steady increase in the total supply turns players can hold - should set the game up for the future

ok, changed the following
1) power required to kill income units went down by 33% (so lower repairs required when attacking and therefore damage done vs damage suffered goes up)
2) Death rates went up
Miners 0.25%=>0.8-1.0%
Workers 0.01%=>0.2-0.4%
3) ST cost went down 20=>15

To clarify, should I ever talk about total war, I mean total war.
That is that even after 2 weeks of fighting and no one rebuilding anything but their strikes, there should still be something left to destroy because you wont have enough ST's to kill everything anytime soon.

This is kinda the type of attack that was meant for people to throw in all the spare ST's you got to deal extra damage.

It is meant to be physically impossible for a 1v1 or even 2v1 to be able to reach the limit that you wont have anything left to destroy.
At least that's the intention

One good reason?
We might actually see legitimate surrenders and ceasefires as both sides might still have an incentive to engage in diplomatic talks to save what's left to save.

Admin wrote:ok, changed the following
1) power required to kill income units went down by 33% (so lower repairs required when attacking and therefore damage done vs damage suffered goes up)
2) Death rates went up
Miners 0.25%=>0.8-1.0%
Workers 0.01%=>0.2-0.4%
3) ST cost went down 20=>15

To clarify, should I ever talk about total war, I mean total war.
That is that even after 2 weeks of fighting and no one rebuilding anything but their strikes, there should still be something left to destroy because you wont have enough ST's to kill everything anytime soon.
This is kinda the type of attack that was meant for people to throw in all the spare ST's you got to deal extra damage.

It is meant to be physically impossible for a 1v1 or even 2v1 to be able to reach the limit that you wont have anything left to destroy.
At least that's the intention

One good reason?
We might actually see legitimate surrenders and ceasefires as both sides might still have an incentive to engage in diplomatic talks to save what's left to save.

Fair enough, i guess that would make wars a lot more interesting/ enjoyable rather than the "blow everything up... then spend the next several weeks simply banking/ farming/ raiding, and occassionally sabbing" pattern which normally happens lol.

Updates look good - and the maths still fits - UU is worth 100,000 currently - 105,000 including addittional miner training costs. 1 miner gives a bonus of 20 kuwal a turn. As such, for a person to be better off having a miner than farmers, that player will have to avoid loosing that single miner in a war for 5250 turns (109.3days) - excluding admin efficiency.

If UU rates climb to 140,000 (145,000 including extra miner training cost vs. farmer), the player will have to avoid loosing that 1 miner for 7,250 turns - 151 days. 160k rates - 8,250 turns - 171.5 days etc... Throw admin efficiency into the equation, and long term UU price increases, having miners really doesn't start to look like such a bright move....

Any move to make it easier to kill miners is a good move as it balances out the farmers (advantage = not being killable) more fairly with miners (advantage = extra income)

Admin wrote:ok, changed the following
1) power required to kill income units went down by 33% (so lower repairs required when attacking and therefore damage done vs damage suffered goes up)
2) Death rates went up
Miners 0.25%=>0.8-1.0%
Workers 0.01%=>0.2-0.4%
3) ST cost went down 20=>15

Any news on when this is likely to be implemented into the main game? Do you need it testing more?

hmm well it's partially coded but i've been discussing it with my brother to rework the idea.

so no, not yet coded

ok, did another major change to the invasion mission and i think will be moving it onto main server soonish.

Death rates (before change => after change)
Worker 0.1% => 0.4%
Miner 0.25%=> 1.1%
Power needed to kill one worker 30000=> 5000
Power needed to kill one miner 18000 => 3000
ST cost per attack 20=>10
AT cost per attack 15=>10

NEW!
You can only target one unit type with an attack as opposed to always targetting and killing both types, a dropdown box is available to pick a target.
If you wish to target both you will kill 0.3% Workers and 0.75% Miners