World Republic & Commonwealth

Most be one of Ian's longest posts ever and Kenzu posted it as well. Hope it isn't contageous. Sigh.
Is it even relevant whether there is a spy, if there is one? Go kcik him or whatever, or exchange him with another spy at point Charlie.
Or start a war, since that is what you want to do. There is no UN on Aderan and you don't have to pretend there is any legitimate cause.
As for vance, he could be a spy as you say, he could be a loyal member of TC and when asked tell he's a spy. He could even be a spy for someone else. There is no way for us to know, so give it a rest already.
Ian, you've already told us that the alleged crimes of Kenzu's are difficult to prove. This conversation proves nothing. So either prove the allegations or swallow them. Repeating them does not make them proven.
Let me know what you think about starting a UN though.

(Already at page 2, even though this is the 4th post. The first post was long.)

It's not about having a spy, it's about admitting it.

But what is the point, really? It reminds me of the issue between Space2050 and 3cats4me. That was much ado about nothing. The problem/noise ratio is very low in my opinion.
The conversation shows mainly two people trying to get the best of each other in a chat session, rather than any attempt at diplomacy.
It ends with the end of diplomatic ties. Sad, really. Maybe both TIE and OE should appoint a minister of foreign affairs or ambassadors to the other empire, since it seems, from the communication at hand, that the spokesmen involved are too much part of the problem to come to a solution.
A lot of the negative sentiments from Ian seem to be targeted at Kenzu directly. That does not help.
Does anyone see a solution to this conflict, other than one of the parties caving in or a war?

Jiro wrote:But what is the point, really? It reminds me of the issue between Space2050 and 3cats4me. That was much ado about nothing. The problem/noise ratio is very low in my opinion.
The conversation shows mainly two people trying to get the best of each other in a chat session, rather than any attempt at diplomacy.
It ends with the end of diplomatic ties. Sad, really. Maybe both TIE and OE should appoint a minister of foreign affairs or ambassadors to the other empire, since it seems, from the communication at hand, that the spokesmen involved are too much part of the problem to come to a solution.
A lot of the negative sentiments from Ian seem to be targeted at Kenzu directly. That does not help.
Does anyone see a solution to this conflict, other than one of the parties caving in or a war?

Ok mate, i m going to explain this once, and once only.

The Imperium doesn't give 2 hoots about the actual fact Kenzu has a spy in The Commonwealth's ranks - we ve known about the spy all along, and simply made use of it to our own advantage (false info). What we do care about however - is that part of the term of the ultimatum we issued was that World Republic withdraw or reveal all spies it has in our ranks. It was a fundamental point of the ultimatum.

Since that ultimatum, we ve asked Kenzu time and time again to be honest with us, and to withdraw the spy. We ve given him chance after chance, and his only response has been to literally lie through his teeth. The spy itself is irrelevant - its the approach World Republic have taken with regard to the spy, and what it shows about them - which is why the spy issue is a major one. By continiously lieing to The Imperium, World Republic are demonstrating several fundamental traits in their foreign policy, these are:

1.) Intention to mislead and decieve.
2.) An outright intention to lie not just once - but repeatedly
3.) An willingness to break an diplomatic agreement (in this case the ultimatum), and lie about breaching it.

These are general traits which can be applied to pretty much every dealing - thus World Republic's willingness to so often utilise such traits is a clear example of exactly why World Republic can not be trusted in any diplomatic contact at all - hence the breaking of diplomatic relations by The Commonwealth, and our giving serious consideration of going to war for the deceit/ lieing to us.

Finally - this individual situation regarding the spy, along with the attempts to recruit a spy - also encompases several other traits which are of significant concern:

1.) The wish to infiltrate another alliance - compromising that alliance's security and sovereignty.
2.) The intention to sow disunity and internal strife by attempting to recruit spies in other alliances (Note: This is the explanation given by Kenzu to Reaper when asked about why he contacted The Company's members asking them to be spies).

And lastly - the current situation of World Republic recruiting more and more alliances to its banner, via dishonest means - by playing The Commonwealth of as the aggressor, and now comparing us to nasty Germany, illustrates several more concerning traits:

1.) The willingness to outright slander and insult a alliance who has actually not *yet* done a single aggressive move against a single player on the game - and one who's only dealings with World Republic have been to intervene for the sake of smaller players on the game when World Republic smashes them up.
2.) The willingness to outright lie and keep its allies in the dark about its dealings and conduct demonstrates a concerning inclination by World Republic to actually using those allies for its own end - potentially even treachery.
3.) The willingness to slander another alliance - knowing the consequences of such slander will actually directly harm that alliance's prosperous prospects in the future, impacting all its memberbase in a negative sense
4.) The willingness to continue all of the above (despite being given opportunity after opportunity to come clean, and cease this situation once and for all in a peaceful means) knowing full well it is going to result in war - a war in which World Republic and its allies will be hopelessly outgunned - shows a massively concerning trait for Kenzu and WR's leadership to place their pride, and their personal ambitions - before their members.

In addittion to these - there are a number of known World Republic past actions which should be taken into consideration along with the above, when deciding on any dealings with World Republic:

1.) The massing of at least 3 - 4 small tiny players without trying diplomacy at all - and in several of these cases, the aggressor was a World Republic member who upon the victim striking back, World Republic as a alliance intervened against. This demonstrates a frankly awful bullying attitude and willingness to bully other players by World Republic - and is a clear sign of a hostile and aggressive foreign policy.

2.) The fact Kenzu and World Republic immediately believed The Company to be a threat due to its strength and size - a point Kenzu actually raised in the above conversation in response to my bringing up his planning to side with The Others - shows a very very awful and treacherous foreign policy, when you consider that before Geto-dacii (the main challenger to The Company) was disbanded, The Company and World Republic worked very closely together and were on very good friendly terms - due to countering Geto-dacii. Thus with the disbandment of Geto-dacii, within weeks World Republic was actively considering siding with The Others (many of whom came from Geto-dacii) simply because it percieved its former-friends to be a threat, one which must be eliminated - due to its size and strength.

In doing this - World Republic demonstrated that past dealings and friendships mean nothing to it, and it demonstrated a distinctely hostile policy that it should adapt such a policy/ objective of wishing the destruction/ reduction of The Company for no reason other than their size and strength. This also highlights considerable elements of paronoia, along with a latant desire by World Republic to neutralise any threats - whether in existence or up and coming - to its power base.

3.) The strong suspicion that World Republic had dealings with Geto-dacii while at the same time backing The Company during their many skirmishes, supports the view World Republic's foreign policy is all about itself, exploiting arguments and disagreements between other alliances for its own ends at the cost of those alliances. This demonstrates a distinctly pro-manipulation and decietful foreign policy.

4.) The mass messaging of practically all the main alliances requesting they be spies - which as Kenzu (ill advisedly) revealed to Reaper, his main objective was not the recruitment of a spy (arguably something designed as a latent defence mechanism i.e. a military asset which would only become active should the alliance it is in become hostile/ a threat to world republic and thus alert WR of its intentions) - but instead the active spread of disuinity, suspicion, paranoia and inevitably - with the objective of starting a witch hunt in the alliances which would badly damage cohesion and morale among the alliance, and structurally damage the alliance as potentially players members leave it.

Such conduct wasn't defensive in nature - it was downright hostile with a very tangible objective to be achieved via launching an covert offensive. World Republic (given if it was successfull, it would have resulted in members leaving the alliance - i.e. if a member with 1million army size leaves the alliance, that alliance has basically just lost 1million army size - no different to loosing 1million army size to a conventional massing) - wasn't just conducting covert operations - it had declared a war against those alliances by such conduct, given the results of its objectives being successfull would be no less devestating than a full-scale conventional massin.

5.) World Republic's assassination, threats and general hostility to commonwealth members when they were "growing up" on the server - which to World Republic given The Commonwealth was a secret alliance, these players would just be small players all alone - thus easy pickings to threat/ carry out hostile actions such as assassinations. Such conduct on the part of World Republic - including by Kenzu with his pm's threatening members with destruction if they farm inactive players, since those inactive players are reserved as farms for World Republic players - demonstrates yet again a very hostile, very aggressive and very bullying attitude to players outside World Republic.

As such - given all the above considerations when looking at the bigger picture, The Commonwealth last night, decided that after the most recent diplomatic discussion with Kenzu was met with the same result - a deliberate attempt by Kenzu to mislead, decieve and lie to us concerning his spy - that it was finally time, having tried numerous times in the past to resolve the issue of World Republic compromising our security and sovereign rights via the placement of its spy in our ranks, that diplomatic links served no purpose other than the attempt by World Republic to utilise them to spread further their deciet and lies.

Consequently, having tried many times in the past, and presented World Republic with many chances to come clean and be honest with us, World Republic yet again lied to us - thus we dissolved Diplomatic links.

The reason The Commonwealth has tried to so hard to get World Republic to admit the presence and existence of the spy in our ranks - is that based upon World Republic's past and present conduct, we have no choice but to conclude that World Republic is an aggressive alliance with strong hostility towards all other alliances which pose a challenge to itself, and this coupled with its attempts to build a counter-bloc to The Imperium, coupled with the outright lies and dishonesty concerning the present dealings and World Republic's willingness to slander and harm The Commonwealth - means that The Commonwealth and Imperium has no choice at all but to deem World Republic as a very real and very significant hostile threat which WILL attempt to harm/ destroy us at first opportunity - and indeed has already attempted to harm us on more than one occassion.

Such a conclusion therefore will leave The Imperium with no choice but to launch a preemptive strike at some point in the future against World
Republic before World Republic have a chance to cause more severe damage. More importantly however - World Republic breached the ultimatum, which we are committed and honour bound to enforce - this thus leaves us no choice in the matter eithier.

As such - our concentration on the spy was for 2 very simple reasons - Had World Republic been honest about the spy it would have:

1.) Satisified the ultimatum - meaning The Imperium would no longer be honour bound and committed to enforce the ultimatum.
2.) It would have been a very real, and very tangible piece of evidence that World Republic is prepared to change its foreign policy and become a more open and trustworthy alliance, thus providing a counter point to past World Republic actions and conduct - giving us the opportunity to use this first "good" step by World Republic as the foundation upon which to (hopefully) build better diplomatic relations.

Instead - the spy issue hasn't served to demonstrate that World Republic has changed and is no longer as much of a threat - its served to demonstrate in a very public and very clear way that World Republic is more aggressive, decietful and manipulative than ever before.

As such - The Commonwealth has dissolved diplomatic links with World Republic.

Now... i hope that better explains the situation?

I wasn't the only one?

Space2050 wrote:Kenzu, I think the problem here, is that your forum security isn't secure enough. Guests can see a bit too much before and after registering. And according to Kilo, you need to be sure that your other user groups don't have unnecessary access to World Republic-Aderan Wars info. Btw, I created an account on your forums to make a quick check to see what was available for reference for this post. (Found nothing, but the account I created is named creatively - 'Reference - DeleteAccount')

If you keep Aderan Wars sections open to the public, other than but possibly including your "Join Aderan Wars Group" topic, make sure to moderate the info posted by your own members so that info doesn't leek out to guests, and pre-accepted new members.


P.S.
Delete member: "Reference - DeleteAccount"
If you do an IP check, all other matches should be guests, and match today and most likely only one other day if any.


edit: Information too easily accessed by guests, or non-usergroup members, on a forum, is a situation more of poor planning by the site admin then a situation of the player who notices the info being a spy. Also, if your forum gets too many bots, consider updating the forums and adding more registering restrictions and safeties. ex: [ag1e3] Input Code: ____

So what information did you accept as a guest?

If you scroll down to Aderan Wars section, you should be able to see only "Join Aderan Usergroup"
if you are a member, you will see a little bit more.

What can you see?

Not much, that's why I decided that someone else with additional info would have to add to my info. Either way, there seemed to be more info on the site last night when I was trying to make references.

Space2050 wrote:Not much, that's why I decided that someone else with additional info would have to add to my info. Either way, there seemed to be more info on the site last night when I was trying to make references.

There was no change for many months.

Kenzu wrote:

Space2050 wrote:Not much, that's why I decided that someone else with additional info would have to add to my info. Either way, there seemed to be more info on the site last night when I was trying to make references.

There was no change for many months.

Well, there is the chance I misread something that other night as well.